Rossi E-Cat SK Demo Discussion

  • Excellent insight into how KevMo's brain works and a likely explanation into his passion for Planet Rossi "truth". If the known criminal liar said it anywhere then it is true in KevMo's world.

    Yet another insult from the.... representative.... crowd.


    "known criminal liar "

    ***Then pick up the phone. Call the Florida dept. of Fraud. Tell them that Rossi lied under oath so there's perjury, at the very least, plus all those other criminal allegations that are so conveniently sitting there , under oath, ready for a lazy prosecutor to tap.


    " If the ... said it anywhere then it is true in KevMo's world. "

    ***You just seem fundamentally incapable of grasping some simple facts, like a discussion of admissibility in court. But it's noticeable that you're REALLY GOOD at twisting things around. So we're not dealing with a lack of intelligence, we're dealing with a character flaw on your part.

  • KevMo- I purchased a front row seat and lived out every minute of the Rossi debacle.

    ***And I was on that thread countering your lies and obfuscations at the time.



    I know what happened. I saw every document Every communication. I know the facts and deal in truth.

    ***Just in that simple exchange above, there is proof that you twist issues. You do not deal in truth. You should be putting quotation marks around "truth" just like you did above, when you say that.


    You are either a paid trouble maker

    ***There you go again. YOU worked for IH, so if anyne is a paid trouble maker, it is YOU.



    or a two bit bystander hack who wouldn't recognize a fact

    ***You mean, like the fact that you hacked above regarding the admissibility of JONP blog entries? That fact is a good representation of how you take a simple fact and twist it around. It's basically a form of lying.


    even after it hit you between the eyes.

    ***Admissibility. JONP entries were admitted into the docket. So what prevents one more JONP entry from being admissible? The fact that you don't like it?


    You are defending / promoting

    ***No I'm not. I am showing you guys how ridiculous you are.


    a very successful multi-decade criminal con liar

    ***Well then, he isn't "inept", is he? And when you were there you failed to take him down. You FAILED. And when we all witness you're obfuscations and lies, it makes us wonder what your agenda is. If he's a criminal then pick up the phone and let the Florida Fraud dept know that a criminal was lying under oath. Go ahead. Please.


    and you're not going to get away with obfuscating the truth

    ***You mean, like what you just did with that admissibility thing?



    or your attempts to retell the story with lies.

    ***I pointed people to the thread entries right on this forum. They can see your lies and obfuscations for themselves.


    A fix for that is on the way.

    ***I would hope you could be fixed. If Rossi is a con artist then you were an integral part of failing to bring him down. You FAILED... you're a FAILURE. If Rossi has LENR in a box then you were part of the organization that tried to appropriate his $Trillion IP. Yeah, I would definitely hope that a fix is on the way.

  • Politics will NOT be discussed in this forum. Just a reminder.

    Okay, so you are saying that it would be irrelevant, out of line, and just plain unacceptable for me to mention the New York Post headline yesterday:


    BEZOS EXPOSES PECKER *


    So I won't mention it.


    Apophasis again!



    This rivals the all-time best New York Post headline:


    HEADLESS BODY IN TOPLESS BAR



    * For those who don't follow American politics, see: https://www.theguardian.com/te…uirer-amazon-david-pecker

  • Well, I can reproduce some at least of Rossi's claims.


    I take an arc lamp - for the sake of argument, a deuterium lamp - and its appropriate power supply.

    I turn it on - after a brief warm-up, high power is temporarily supplied, and the arc is struck. After that, the arc is maintained by a relatively small current - tens to low hundreds mA.


    From the subjective colour of that arc (NOT that I'm looking at t with the naked eye! - I value my eyesight), Wit's a bluish white. With spectrometry, and treating that arc as a black body, I can determine that its temperature, based on its peak spectral output, appears to be, yes, something over 7,000 K. (conventionally known as "cool white")


    It gets better. If I (or a non-too-bright assistant) touches the quartz envelope of that lamp, there is badly burnt skin - it is very hot! It is not, however anything like as hot as the arc APPEARS to be, or the quartz would melt.


    So far so good. I have a hot-looking arc, and a hot-feeling lamp, running on a low maintenance current


    What I will NOT be able to do, however, is to confirm the "mathematical claim" of 22 kW heat output by heat flow measurements.

    I could leave that lamp burning in a cold warehouse for as long as it lasted. No-one would begin to feel warm.

    OTOH, I could ship in my domestic 24kW condensing gas-fired boiler, some pipes and radiators, and things would probably warm up a bit ( depending on warehouse dimensions, temperature differential between inside and outside, insulation, and draughtproofing.)


    So far, so good. I, like Rossi have a hot arc (temperature calculated from known physics); the arc running at a few watts power measured; and a hot envelope around that arc.


    This is where the problems begin. The arc must be in thermal equilibrium with its surroundings - it is burning steadily. The envelope containing that arc,is with, say 1 cm of the arc itself. Now, I think I'm right in saying that the most refractory transparent material known is fused quartz, which softens at c. 1680 deg C

    Since the amp envelope is not turning to a molten blob, we know that the effective temperature of the whole device is less than 1680 deg C.

    "Ah" you say. "But these devices are cooled - the heat is removed"

    "Right!" I say. "But you can buy off the shelf an arc lamp with an arc of around the same temperature as Rossi's, calculated in the same way, and the only cooling is air-cooling, possibly fan-assisted. In no way can tens of kW of heat be removed"

    So there's the challenge for Rossi-Replicators. Crowd fund whatever arc lamp and power supply you deem fit, and you will easily get an arc maintained by a few watts of power, which you will be able to show by Rossi's calculations to have a temperature of 6-8,000 K

    Your challenge is to extract 22 kW heat from it, using whatever method of heat exchange you can find or invent.

    Forza ragazzi!!

  • So there's the challenge for Rossi-Replicators. Crowd fund whatever arc lamp and power supply you deem fit, and you will easily get an arc maintained by a few watts of power, which you will be able to show by Rossi's calculations to have a temperature of 6-8,000 K


    Nigel Appleton You make some simple mistakes:


    Modern arc lamps have an current/light conversion efficiency above 50%. Thus 50% -the light! - passes the quartz without heating it. If somebody claims the peek of the radiation is in the UV range then even more passes without directly heating the quartz device. Such (street-) lamps are rated a some 100 Watts and need no active cooling if the surface is large enough.


    But as we know AR being an Italian that always multiplies his real device output/size by a factor of 2-4... With much much goodwill may be 4-5 keV could work out for a plasma tube of his tubes size.

  • I rarely if ever approve of banning but one valid criterion is the occupation of a lot of space with irrelevant unfocused verbiage (or sometimes people put in blank space) which makes the forum very difficult to follow for the average reader. Shane D. seems to think there is some value in the incoherent and often offensive nonsense posted by [email protected] . I'm curious what that value is, Shane.

  • So for all of your whining about people not answering your questions, you completely fail to answer his question as to why you believe the current Rossi widget is real. SO LET ME ASK THE SAME QUESTION: WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THE CURRENT ROSSI WIDGET IS REAL? Or is your answer going to be an excuse again.


    You also complain about personal insults but then you do the same by saying that "to be candid, I'm not really all that interested in your answer," which I interpret, at a minimum, as an implied insult to the person's intelligence, reasoning ability and, possibly, integrity. And just to be clear, based on your posts to date (going back some period of time), I have absolutely no doubts about your lack of integrity, and possibly your intelligence and reasoning ability.

    My complaint about insults is that yours are allowed to remain while mine were shunted to the other thread. Even when I separate out insults and comment only on the substance of the post, without return insults, those comments are shunted aside as well.

  • Those are insults??? Hardly. Now, if I said that IMO you were a imbecilic a**hole who constantly evades answering questions because you are too scared, that would be an insult. It might be factually accurate, but it would still be an insult so I won't say those things.

    You call me imbecilic. Then my contentions should be easily countered, but they aren't. Also, note that your veiled insult remains... I responded in kind but my veiled insult was shunted.

  • I rarely if ever approve of banning but one valid criterion is the occupation of a lot of space with irrelevant unfocused verbiage (or sometimes people put in blank space) which makes the forum very difficult to follow for the average reader. Shane D. seems to think there is some value in the incoherent and often offensive nonsense posted by [email protected] . I'm curious what that value is, Shane.

    If it's incoherent then counter it. You folks have gotten so used to unanswered insults that you don't know what it's like to have an actual debate.

  • There is nothing worthwhile to counter. More so for anyone who has actually followed and understood Rossi's criminal past and complete lack of provable achievements ever.

    Then your life is easy. When I say that someone thinks Rossi's a criminal, and I encourage them to call the Florida Dept. of Fraud because there is evidence he committed perjury among other fraudulent crimes.... there is nothing to counter.

  • Maybe we should send a petition to the “Florida Dept. of Fraud”.


    One to the USPTO also, for the climatizing domestic reactor (part of the Doral Plant, still installed) claimed to be proof of use of the Cat and Ball in support of the trademark application.


    Verified statements are required

    Filing an application with the USPTO starts a legal proceeding regarding your trademark or service mark. Therefore assurances or other statements made in your application must be truthful and made with knowledge of the penalty of perjury under the laws of the United States. So, verifying a statement means that you are making a statement that is sworn to, made under oath or in a notarized affidavit, or with a written and signed declaration that states, essentially, that you have been warned about the legal consequences of making willful false statements in any document filed with us.

    For more information about verification, see 37 C.F.R. §§2.2(n), 2.20, 2.33, 2.76(b)(1), 2.88(b)(1), 2.193(e)(1) and TMEP §§804.01, 1104.08, 1109.06.


    https://www.myfloridacfo.com/d…/consumers/fraudscams.htm


    https://www.myfloridacfo.com/S…itiatives/Protection.aspx

  • Nigel Appleton You make some simple mistakes:


    Modern arc lamps have an current/light conversion efficiency above 50%. Thus 50% -the light! - passes the quartz without heating it. If somebody claims the peek of the radiation is in the UV range then even more passes without directly heating the quartz device. Such (street-) lamps are rated a some 100 Watts and need no active cooling if the surface is large enough.


    But as we know AR being an Italian that always multiplies his real device output/size by a factor of 2-4... With much much goodwill may be 4-5 keV could work out for a plasma tube of his tubes size.


    Indeed. My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek.

    Nevertheless, the basis of Rossi's SK "claims" and of the "maths" "supporting" them is this arc-like doodad wherein he calculated the temperature of c. 8000K.

    Whatever magic elements he may be cooking up in there, whatever radiation-free transmutations he may in the future claim, starts with a radiating flapdoodle at 8000K.

    Now, IF he is getting 20+kW out of it, a question is how he is capturing all that radiated energy. Much of it would seem to be in UV and visible light at wavelengths passing through the envelope, and I'm willing to accept that there would be a whole lot more at longer wavelengths.

    He has, I think, hinted at a super-efficient heat exchanger ( well, he's an expert, innit?), but no details.

    The fact remains, we can easily produce an arc or body whose temperature calculated by the Rossi method is ~8000K, and which is maintained at that temperature by a few watts of electricity, (and this can be done with off-the shelf components). It should be almost as trivial to whop up an enclosure for it which is also a heat exchanger - say a water-jacket made of a lovely black anodised aluminium- which would capture (virtually) ALL the wavelengths. Then if water is made to flow through the device we can oh! so easily measure inlet and outlet temperatures, and do the calculations.

    Or - why is the production of an arc with a temperature of ~8000K NOT a reproduction of the ecatSK?

  • [email protected]


    I'm delighted to answer your challenge made amidst your very many posts above: specifically to answer line by line your arguments. I'll do this by replying to your helpful reply to my statement above. After which you wrote a large number of less helpful posts.


    Your reply was helpful because it indicates your thought processes and hence where you went wrong. Others have also corrected this, but you have not taken those points. I'm hoping this will make it clearer for you.


    In the text below my point is italic, your reply in bold.


    I'd address his contrafactual interpretation of Rossi's attempt to sue IH. Rossi, about to be given $100M if he could get his e-cats to work, decided to sue IH.

    ***Bullsh***, er, I mean nonsense. He had an independent 3rd party report in hand that said the devices work, as per the agreement.

    IH needed to settle because the judge would have treated that independent third party report as a... wait for it.... third party report.


    IH's contention, backed up by sworn evidence from Darden and others, is that the IH devices never worked, but for some time they were deceived by Rossi's measurement method which showed X3 or more false positive. We know now BTW from many independent analyses both empirical and analytical that the Lugano power measurement method advocated by Levi and Rossi can do this. Levi was plainly wrong. IH claim they detected this for sure only when noticing that a control reactor measured the same as active ones when run as part of a batch under identical conditions. IH then called Rossi in to help, thinking they had made some mistake, and Rossi became angry and then refused to help get anything to work. You need to read the detailed statements from IH, and compare that with what Rossi says. Even if Rossi were not a self-confessed liar the lack of detailed counter to IH detail here is telling. As is the fact that IH statements are made under oath, would obviously be challenged in Trial leading to Perjury accusation against Darden if he is not believed. A big deal.


    IH also had documents showing that they did not care about the test and would happily give Rossi his $100M if they got working reactors (as the falsely measured reactors appeared to work) out of it. Such reactors, stable, with indefinite X3 output power, even without further development could be commercialised and IH had a plan for that. They had no interest in treating Rossi badly. True, they did not trust him an inch, who would, but the money was worth it - and I think most people would agree with them - if the e-cats worked.



    The Trial started

    Then, after heavy pre-Trial legal expenses, and just before Rossi had to give evidence himself under oath to support his lies,

    Industrial Heat settled just before Rossi was going to --wait for it--go after their partners and show they had received his IP. Not only that, but the judge called him "dr. Rossi" right in front of the jurors and people started showing up ready to testify that it was speculated wouldn't show up.


    Rossi settled. Rossi originally sued IH, wanting his $100M. He never got this. IH, like any sensible company, did not want legal proceedings. But they could not give Rossi $100M for non-working product. I have no idea from where you get your evidence about people showing up. Abd was at the Trial proceedings, reported in great detail here and on his site which we reference, and his account does not agree with yours. I also notice that the content of your statement above is pure speculation with no fcats to back it up. As opposed to my comment here which is backed up by Court depositions and transcripts etc.


    Rossi, on his blog, tried to spin the whole affair as a victory for him. It clearly was not. He sued IH, spent legal fees, and received back nothing of any value.


    Incidentally, I fail to see what relevance the Judge calling Rossi Dr. has to anything - except that it is the sort of thing Rossi would care about and might propagate.



    Rossi stopped his action in return for - wait for it - the (Doral) e-cat IP.

    Not the $100M (or was it $300M) he was asking for.

    ***You can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. IH would go bankrupt before they paid out $300M. And they knew that they couldn't separate Rossi from his IP, that in order to get the boxes to work he would have to go with them... the Fred Flinstone strategy.


    That is a fair point re extracting money from IH. But then Rossi would have known that before spending so much money on pre-trial lawyers. So why did he suddenly change his mind? Also, although IH did not have $100M (they had a strategy to raise it on the evidence of working product) they had a significant amt of money. Rossi could have obtained that. Your other point is factually wrong. The license contract does separate Rossi from his IP. If IH had paid up they would have got what (in the hypothetical use of working e-cats) they wanted.



    But wait - KevMo - that IP. So valuable...

    If Rossi's IP was worthless then he would have gone after the money. And if his IP was worthless then IH wouldn't have asked for it in their original countersuit, even though they weren't willing to PAY for it. If his IP were worthless the independent report would have said so. The whole trial HINGED on his IP, which -- wait for it -- you call worthless.

    That KevMo is not what Rossi said when demanding $300M. In Court Depositions he said that he was desperate for the Trial to go ahead so he could get his money. Nor do you have any evidence for it other than the blog statements of a self-confessed liar. However I have the actions of said liar. On having that IP reassigned:

    • No Doral style e-cats have been build or sold
    • No-one has been sold the IP
    • Rossi has claimed it is worthless (and therefore he will instead develophis new device)
    • It has sunk without trace. Expected given IH claims. Strange given Rossi's claims.


    Umm... No, Rossi has decided to ditch the old-style e-cats and work on a completely different system with nothing in common, which, he declared, is better.

    And had little bearing on the proceedings of the trial at the time, other than to show that Rossi had a backup plan.

    True, no direct bearing. But it speaks to the fact that those devices did not work and therefore it has a strong bearing on how the actions of Rossi and IH during the trial can be interpeted. It is called joining up the dots.


    But that old IP, so valuable Rossi gave up his chance of $100M

    I doubt IH would have paid, especially in light of the Fred Flinstone strategy. They would simply have gone bankrupt and Rossi woulda got nothing.

    Repeat of earlier point, dealt with earlier


    after spending all that early money on legal fees,

    ***Industrial Heat spent a ton on legal fees themselves, and got... a yearlong demo and a 3rd party report saying it worked, which is what their contract stipulated.

    This is a non sequitur


    surely that has value and could be sold to somone even if Rossi did not want it?

    Nope.

    Not necessarily having any weight whatsoever on the legal proceedings, does it? But it doesn't stop you from criticizing him every chance you get.

    This is a repeat of your argument above, which, if you join the dots, is clearly false. And you are adding to this lack of deduction a comment on my stance that does not advance your argument. If those e-cats work the IP has large value - as do the devices which Rossi or IH could mass produce. That this has not happened speaks to no value.


    Regards,

    THH

  • ***Bullsh***, er, I mean nonsense. He had an independent 3rd party report in hand that said the devices work, as per the agreement.

    IH needed to settle because the judge would have treated that independent third party report as a... wait for it.... third party report.


    IH's contention, backed up by sworn evidence from Darden and others, is that the IH devices never worked, but for some time they were deceived by Rossi's measurement method which showed X3 or more false positive. We know now BTW from many independent analyses both empirical and analytical that the Lugano power measurement method advocated by Levi and Rossi can do this.


    THHuxleynew is describing the Levi tests with the small cylindrical devices. As noted, an empty one produced apparent excess heat, and Rossi got upset.


    However, perhaps kevmol has in mind the Doral test, and by "third party report" he means the Penon report. I and many others concluded that report was invalid. For details, see the report itself and the reviews by Murray and Smith:


    http://coldfusioncommunity.net…/01/0197.03_Exhibit_3.pdf


    http://coldfusioncommunity.net…01/0207.65_Exhibit_65.pdf


    http://coldfusioncommunity.net…/01/0194.01_Exhibit-1.pdf


    http://coldfusioncommunity.net…7/01/252-05-Exhibit-E.pdf


    I am pretty sure he meant the Penon report, from what he wrote here:


    a yearlong demo and a 3rd party report saying it worked, which is what their contract stipulated.


    The contract did stipulate this, but the report was invalid, having fake data and physically impossible claims. Such a report cannot fulfil a contract.

  • While kevmolenr continues with his crusade, it seems appropriate to make a side comment. As far as I am concerned, as soon as an individual here uses the term “skeptopath”, I confidently place them in the intellectual spam folder and confidently disregard any opinions they share going forward. This is not unique. On more general websites, I do the same for anyone who uses the term “libtard”.

    Only a true skeptopath would say such a thing. You might as well face it IO, the Ecatard may be right. :)

  • I'm convinced the skeptopaths will always win because every time someone comes up with a powerful LENR technology that could convince the world they go the same path as me356, Rossi, Russ George, and others so the technology ends up going nowhere. Inventor's syndrome is what continually stops LENR and cold fusion from emerging into the mainstream.

  • It's my new conviction to consider any inventor of a revolutionary, paradigm shattering technology (not simply a better light bulb) that starts off open and then goes secretive (especially when he or she admits to a financial motivation) is most likely never going to accomplish anything that benefits the world. Simply put, if someone invents a better light bulb today, they file a patent application and if the idea is even marginally significant a half dozen news articles will be written explaining the concept. I've seen several examples of this in the past year or two. With conventional technologies, the inventor follows the same route as every other technology. He or she files a patent, writes papers, and shares the know how openly. However, when it comes to people with a cold fusion or LENR technology that they feel is a breakthrough, they almost always feel that they need to work differently than someone with a conventional technology. But the truth is that they should follow the exact same path as if they had invented something much more mundane. Inventor's syndrome gets in the way. They start thinking their technology is so special they have to start playing games to protect it.


    Patterson, Russ, Rossi, and a long list of inventor's needed or need to go about bringing their technology to the market exactly as if it were a better light bulb - perhaps with a new kind of filament or LED. Sadly, that's not happening with Russ or Rossi.

  • Inventor's syndrome is what continually stops LENR and cold fusion from emerging into the mainstream.


    Most researchers are academic scientists working for government institutions, such as national labs or universities. These researchers do not have any financial stake in the discovery. They will never own the IP, any more than the government researchers who invented the internet did. They cannot earn more than their regular salaries, even if cold fusion earns trillions of dollars. So they cannot be affected by the inventor's syndrome.


    A few of the researchers who invented internet protocols such as Vincent Cerf and Robert Kahn became famous among programmers. Those two finally did get a financial reward for their work. They won the Turing Award, which is the Nobel Prize of programming. It used to be just a prize as I recall, but starting in 2007 it included $250,000, and lately it has been boosted to $1 million. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_Award) Some other pioneering experts who developed the internet were hired by Google and other big companies as Fellows (people who can work on whatever they want) at high salaries. However, none of them got any royalties.



    I know who most of the Turing Award winners are, and what they did, but you probably don't. Do you know who Niklaus Wirth is? Frederick Brooks? There would be no internet security or credit card transactions without public-key cryptography, invented by Hellman and Diffie. Their contributions to the economy probably amounts to trillions of dollars, but they did not make those profits. Academic researchers such as Joseph Henry, Michael Faraday and von Neumann invented just about every important technology since 1600, but they seldom get any benefit from it, and most people have no idea who they are. The industrialists who take advantage of their discoveries get the credit. Hellman and Diffie made it possible to do banking over the internet, but bank presidents are the ones who earn hundreds of millions a year from that invention.

  • I'm convinced the skeptopaths will always win because every time someone comes up with a powerful LENR technology that could convince the world they go the same path as me356, Rossi, Russ George, and others so the technology ends up going nowhere. Inventor's syndrome is what continually stops LENR and cold fusion from emerging into the mainstream.

    That’s it Director, you got it for sure,

    Inventors syndrome, that’s the reason that they all fail.

    Couldn’t possibly be that it doesn’t work?