Rossi E-Cat SK Demo Discussion

Quote from jtomas

They also believed they would be able to use Rossi+Doral to raise a lot of money, and did so with at least Woodford.

I do not think so. When the Doral test was underway, long before it ended, they told me it wasn't working and they were not happy with it. I am sure they told Woodford the same thing, because they could not hide that fact from him. It was obvious to anyone who visited the test or looked at the data that it was not working. As I have often said, the fact that visitors were not cooked was proof that the data was cooked.

I do not know what they told Woodford but they did not lie to him. He would have taken back the money if they did. There is no way they could have presented Rossi's work as anything other than a failure during the Doral test. Still, no one could be certain it was a failure until the test ended. If the machine had been real he might have fixed it in the last months of the test. He did not. Instead, he submitted the Penon report, which is proof the machine did not work and that Rossi is a fraud.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Well, analogously, one can say “This is poison ivy. Here is what it looks like. Here is what the rash looks like when someone touches it. Leaves of three, let them be...”, etc. And still people wipe their bums with it, try and eat it, maybe even smoke it. So the good works are wasted.

Things like that actually happen. Especially with nature these days, because people know less about it than they ever did. * I have heard that at National Parks, the Rangers have found people with a bear near their cars, standing outside the car smearing food on their kids' faces, hoping to get a photo of the bear licking the kid off. Another example I heard was at a county fair, a farmer explained to some kids how to milk a cow. A few minutes later the parents showed up, fit to be tied. (Angry, that is.) "How dare you tell our children such a thing! That's gross! It's obscene." It took a while for the farmer to persuade them that milk really does come from cow's udders.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Maybe the idiots, after twice or more times warned and informed, need to learn the lesson the hard way, and get a self-taught lesson they rightly deserve, at some point.

"Experience is a dear teacher but a fool will learn at no other." - Franklin

(For non-native speakers of English: "dear" used to mean "expensive.")

* Wandering far from the topic . . . In Edo-period Japan, wealthy people and especially well-brought up women used to pretend they knew nothing about nature. They would ask "what sort of tree does rice grow on?" The idea was that gentle-folk never work in the fields. This is also reflected in the etymology of the word kamatoto (https://eowp.alc.co.jp/search?…3%81%BE%E3%81%A8%E3%81%A8) which means Little Miss Innocent or faux-naif, especially pretending to know nothing about sex. The word means very roughly, "is fish paste (kamaboko) really made out of fish?"

Quote from Shane D.

jtomas

Thanks for joining the discussion. Good to have someone well informed about the Rossi story speak up in his defense. Along with Doral, maybe you could give your opinion on why Rossi dropped the Doral based Ecat tech, and your thoughts on what we may expect in Europe with the SK?

Do not worry, I am not on a fishing expedition, so you can answer freely.

Shane D, forever the instigator

Quote from jtomas

No, not as far as I can see reading through it again. What section do you mean? It seems like the only real goal for IH was to get the full IP and replicate what Rossi was doing by themselves. (it is stated many times). Having Rossi running the Doral plant and showing that it works, had no value to them if they already had the sauce. Especially since the $89M was due after a successful test... Since they did not have all of the sauce they needed Rossi to continue and they needed the plant as a marketing tool to raise money. Therefore all vagueness and and focus on not upsetting Rossi. Also looks like Cassarino tipped Rossi off about them not going to accept Penon halfway through the test. Kind if stupid telling Cassarino about their strategy and not Rossi. Of course Rossi was pissed recieving that email!!!

So, you say that IH knew that Rossi’s technology (which could earn them billions) worked, but they were so stupid not to pay Rossi that 89 millions, instead they went into a lawsuit, and instead of trying to fight and win in the court-room, they settled with Rossi with the result that they gave up everything (the 11 mio they had already paid plus their legal expenses, the “so valuable” e-cat IP and license rights) and got nothing.

That sounds incredible stupid, doesn’t it?

Quote from jtomas

Also looks like Cassarino tipped Rossi off about them not going to accept Penon halfway through the test.

That is a ridiculous thing for you to say. Have you seen the Penon report? No one would need to "tip off Rossi" that the report would be rejected. He showed them the data from it halfway through the test. Anyone with half a brain would reject that data at a glance. Anyone visiting the test could see it wasn't working, and the instruments were a mess. Rossi could not have had any illusions that the result would be accepted. It was a crude put-up job. I suppose the only reason he wrote it (and pretended that Penon wrote it) was that he hoped to bamboozle a stupid jury in Florida with it.

The Penon report is here:

http://coldfusioncommunity.net…/01/0197.03_Exhibit_3.pdf

It is a good litmus test. If you read it, and you think it has any merit at all, and that it might not be blatant fraud, that proves you are inept, not capable of evaluating high-school level science, and you should not try to contribute technical comments to this forum.

When you read the arguments made by Rossi believers you begin to realize what their world view must be. Basically, their ground truth is that the e-cat is real and what Rossi says is correct. If those things are a priori true, then all other things - counterfactuals, the laws of physics, logic, common sense, etc - become mutable. The results are what we observe.

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Why would anyone seriously think that Rossi has any IP?

Because Rossi said so many time in his respected Journal of Nuclear Physics, you silly wabbit!

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Good to have someone well informed about the Rossi story speak up in his defense.

Nobody with at least a double digit IQ, truly well informed about what Rossi has said and done in the past would defend any of it.

jtomas

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I can only guess that the Doral tech was not scalable and not realiable, in the sense that Rossi needed to micromanage it almost 24/7. Process control was not even close to be totally automatized. With the QX and SK its a whole different story. Process control is instant and does not rely on the intuition of Rossi on what is going to happen in an hour if flow/heat of whatever is changed now.

How in the world do you know any of that? Are you living inside Rossi's non-existent lab coat?

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Shane D. likes this.

OMG! Why?

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No, not as far as I can see reading through it again. What section do you mean? It seems like the only real goal for IH was to get the full IP and replicate what Rossi was doing by themselves. (it is stated many times). Having Rossi running the Doral plant and showing that it works, had no value to them if they already had the sauce. Especially since the $89M was due after a successful test... Since they did not have all of the sauce they needed Rossi to continue and they needed the plant as a marketing tool to raise money. Therefore all vagueness and and focus on not upsetting Rossi. Also looks like Cassarino tipped Rossi off about them not going to accept Penon halfway through the test. Kind if stupid telling Cassarino about their strategy and not Rossi. Of course Rossi was pissed recieving that email!!!

Paranoid crockery. IH thought Rossi might have something in which case, if they could develop it a bit, prove it worked and tie it up with patents. Then, they could make billions. There would be no reason not to give Rossi a modest share he was asking for. None at all. Whether he ever gave them anything else or not. Of course they would not pay unless they had a working device and understood how to make working devices. Who in their right mind would? I have no idea what this sort of prattling is all about.

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JedRothwell

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Another example I heard was at a county fair, a farmer explained to some kids how to milk a cow. A few minutes later the parents showed up, fit to be tied. (Angry, that is.) "How dare you tell our children such a thing! That's gross! It's obscene." It took a while for the farmer to persuade them that milk really does come from cow's udders

I strongly suspect that this story is apocryphal. The reason I say that is that everyone knows where human milk comes from so the analogy is pretty straightforward.

The bear and child story I am less sure about. People do get out of cars in Africa to pet wild lions and as often as not, end up as dinner for the lions. So it's improbable but sadly, possible.

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That is my Rossi. He blocked the Swedes out well over 6 months ago. Lied to Kullander about the fuel ash sample. Fabiani gave up on him, although still believes in the tech. Now his most loyal friend since 1996 -Cassarino, kicked to the curb. The man sure knows how to reward loyalty! I believe though Ampenergo (Cassarino's company for dealing with Rossi matters) still has the North American license? jtomas might know more about that than me though.

Yes, Rossi shafted everyone he did business with without exception. He never provided anything of value to anyone ever. He is a consummate con man. He is nothing whatever other than a complete liar and crook.

Quote from Forty-Two

So, you say that IH knew that Rossi’s technology (which could earn them billions) worked, but they were so stupid not to pay Rossi that 89 millions, instead they went into a lawsuit, and instead of trying to fight and win in the court-room, they settled with Rossi with the result that they gave up everything (the 11 mio they had already paid plus their legal expenses, the “so valuable” e-cat IP and license rights) and got nothing.

That sounds incredible stupid, doesn’t it?

Ahhh, sot, sot, sot

You have much to learn my young Padawan.

This is simply what happens when “Rossiites” get caught in the crushing grip of logic and reason.

It is genetic and contagious, and can be spread from clan to clan on planet Rossi.

Quote from jtomas

Nope. It is obvious that they (1) considered the contract to be invalid (missing signatures, time line, six cylinder cats, etc, etc) so that they were not obliged to pay - or that it at least was negotiable, and (2) they wanted Rossi keep working to not disturb investors ("create waves" as Cassarino says), as if was going to get paid. They wanted Rossi to have that illusion. Also it looks as if (3) - they were not able to raise enough money anyways

"Also it looks as if (3) - they were not able to raise enough money anyways"

There you go making stuff up again. Your ignorance betrays you. IH's parent had hundreds of millions available. IH was set up as a "one-way" money valve to protect the parent corp's assets. This is normal corporate practice. To not set it up this way would essentially be malpractice. If Rossi actually had excess heat with COP of 2, let alone the contractually required COP of 6, they would have had no problem financing the $89M.

Quote from jtomas

Since they did not have all of the sauce they needed Rossi to continue and they needed the plant as a marketing tool to raise money.

The contract clearly stated that Rossi had to give them all of the technology necessary for successful operation. Not providing the "secret sauce" would be breach of contract by Rossi.

Of course we now know there was no customer, no excess heat. Rossi just made up super secret Johnson Matthew (sic, mis-spelled on letterhead!) "customer". It seems he didn't like the scrutiny he was getting in NC as his perpetual fraud was starting to unravel.

There was instead, at Doral, a ridiculous "super secret" shipping container hidden behind an 8 foot plywood curtain with a crude "heat exchanger" inside it (a rack of serpentine pipes), complete with electrical resistive heating strips on the pipes, a cheap Grundfos circulation pump, no product or production, no workers, no control systems, an open to the air circulation (so low pressure) between the fraudulent "reactor" (complete with dosimetric pumps that look cool with their digital readouts but whose precise measuring capability was useless with flow rates required of an actual working device) and the fraudulent "super secret customer-side" container, (all of this stated under oath by Rossi or shown in pictures obtained through deposition).

So whatever "secret sauce" formula he provided to Darden (and he claimed he did provide that) was a hoax.

I would think that the pictures of the rusting E-Cat sitting in the Doral parking lot after the Doral scam, the Stockholm scam (with video showing Il Dottore secretively flipping a switch), and E-Skat scam with the ridiculous excuse for a "demonstration" just presented, coupled with decades of previous fraudulent projects would be enough to convince anyone that Rossi never has had anything to sell but a pack of lies.

But, here we are.

Quote from sigmoidal

. If Rossi actually demonstrated something, they would have had no problem financing the $89M.

Well, that was exactly what he did in the Doral plant. It's described in the Cassarino file. It seems to me IH definitely thought they were showing a working device? Otherwise I guess they would be guilty of defrauding Woodford, right? Not being able to replicate without the help of Rossi it is a total different story. (although maybe Brilluoin could be considered a replication by now of the original design) I do not doubt they had problems doing that due to both lack of tech competence (being mainly finance guys) and due to the possible Flintstone factor. Also I do believe you seriously underestimate the difficulties in raising this kind of money for a project like this.

IH

Quote from JedRothwell

He showed them the data from it halfway through the test.

Well - Obviously IH were happy to show the plant to Woodford and very happy to take their money at that time. They did not want Rossi to believe they did not accept Penon at that time.

Quote from jtomas

Well, that was exactly what he did in the Doral plant. It's described in the Cassarino file. It seems to me IH definitely thought they were showing a working device? Otherwise I guess they would be guilty of defrauding Woodford, right? Not being able to replicate without the help of Rossi it is a total different story. (although maybe Brilluoin could be considered a replication by now of the original design) I do not doubt they had problems doing that due to both lack of tech competence (being mainly finance guys) and due to the possible Flintstone factor. Also I do believe you seriously underestimate the difficulties in raising this kind of money for a project like this.

IH

Rossi clearly showed that he had nothing in Doral. His pumps could not supply the circulation to meet his claimed heat, he had no mechanism for venting the heat unless you believe his fairy tale imaginary mezzanine heat exchanger story (that supposedly vented out a closed glass side window). That's the story he came up with 1 year after the "test" (most likely because Jed kept hammering that point here on LENR, which we know Rossi reads) and that he then claimed "disappeared" a day after the fraudulent 350 day "test" was complete once pictures showed no such thing existed the day after the test. Are you blind?

And regarding financing Woodford had already chipped in $50M, according to corporate filings. Woodford put that in without evidence, presumably on Darden's word. You think that if IH had reasonable evidence of success that they would have had a hard time coming up with the balance? If so, you know nothing about VC financing.

BTW, notice that Woodford, to this day, has not lost their investment, despite Rossi's scam. Darden ate the $10M personally.

Not sure who ate the IH legal fees, but it wouldn't surprise me if Darden paid those too.

Quote from jtomas

Well - Obviously IH were happy to show the plant to Woodford and very happy to take their money at that time. They did not want Rossi to believe they did not accept Penon at that time.

Have you looked at the data or not? NO ONE would accept it. The reasons were spelled out by Murray in his letter to Rossi. That is what they told Rossi.

Quote from Dewey Weaver

jtomas is so full of crap. Rossi threw Cassarino out of his life once the Doral test started. Rossi banished him from coming to visit and commanded him to not contact him ever again. Cassarino was shocked - another Rossi discard / throw-away. The esteemed fiction writer jtomas doesn't deal in facts so that is moot for his story but thought that everyone else would enjoy knowing this tidbit. A first person fact.

That doesn't really fit the description from the Cassarino file, does it? At least two tours of the plant is described in the file - and nothing there indicates anything like what you say. My impression is that you are simply making stuff up as you go to make Rossi look bad (being childish, calling names, etc).

Quote from JedRothwell

Have you looked at the data or not? NO ONE would accept it. The reasons were spelled out by Murray in his letter to Rossi. That is what they told Rossi.

Do you agree that IH was happy to show Woodford the plant and take their money the way Cassarino describes it? And that they did want to keep Rossi in the dark about their thoughts on Penon?

Quote from sigmoidal

And regarding financing Woodford had already chipped in $50M, according to corporate filings. Woodford put that in without evidence, presumably on Darden's word. You think that if IH had reasonable evidence of success that they would have had a hard time coming up with the balance? If so, you know nothing about VC financing.

Well. It's a fact though that IH did want Rossi to believe that there was a test going on when Woodford visited the plant several months into the test.