I don't know what Celani and the Swedes now have to say about Rossi.
Celani's only involvement was to measure a burst of radiation just before a test, with two meters. Rossi was upset with him for doing this. I do not think he took part in any other test, or said anything more about it. I asked him about the burst years ago. He shrugged and said he does not know what to make of it.
I do not think he (Celani) took part in any other test
No - he didn't, and was just in Lugano as an observer, not a 'tester'.
That is the multi-million dollar question, isn't it? Focardi was old, extremely ill, and desperately wanted his belief that LENR was real to be borne out. He was the ripest possible fruit for Rossi to pluck and the most cynical one to exploit.
***Then you need to explain his coworkers who were Ni-H LENR experts as well, Roberto Habel and Francesco Piantelli.
I don't know what Celani and the Swedes now have to say about Rossi.
***Then your thesis starts to break down. This makes him an extremely wily con man to fool a whole panel of Swedes, one of whom was the chair of the Swedish Skeptics Society, with a black box independent report. Looking at his list of victims makes Rossi one of the greatest magicians of all time.
They won't allow appropriate interviewers to talk to them and for the most part say nothing.
***And yet, that is their DUTY, as scientists on the public dole who produced a scientific report, isn't it? Things that make you go hmmmmmmm....
I would love for Levi especially to explain his current thoughts about Rossi.
***To hear your cohorts say it, he's just dumb. Smart enough to be a physics professor but in reality, just dumb.
But victims of cons are usually so embarrassed that they do not with to talk about it. Best guess
***Thanks for acknowledging where this inquiry is at this stage: A GUESS.
is that Levi and the Swedes were very gullible.
***EXTREMELY gullible, to run a series of black box tests and still get bamboozled. This is a fantastic magic trick.
None of them applied best practices of investigating and exploring claims to Rossi
***And what WERE those "best practices" if not something that a chairman of the Swedish Skeptics Society would be aware of? Or is this just another case of an RDS adherent telling people that they weren't following protocols that didn't even exist yet?
and his idiotic devices.
***Idiotic? At the very least this makes an amazing magic trick.
Like JedRothwell noted, now, the current crop of Rossi claims is a Nigerian style lowest denominator scheme seeking only the dumbest and most gullible possible investors.
***That could be true, and it could also... not be true. The path to truth goes through a bunch of PhD level Swedes who performed black box testing while the magician wasn't even on the same continent. That's not someone seeking the dumbest , that's for sure. So now you're reduced to saying that the Swedish Skeptics Society and all those black box testers were ... gullible?
And Rossi may yet find one. It only takes on who has more money than brains and wants Rossi's claims to be real badly enough.
***Reminds me of the scene in "Die Hard" where Hans Gruber says "You asked for a miracle, I give you the FBI." You ask for a miracle and we already gave you Industrial Heat.
now, the current crop of Rossi claims is a Nigerian style lowest denominator scheme seeking only the dumbest and most gullible possible investors. And Rossi may yet find one. It only takes one who has more money than brains and wants Rossi's claims to be real badly enough.
You are a third rate hate monger who, like most here, are totally clueless about what is going on, but that doesn't stop you from fabricating opinions out of thin air.
I don't know what Celani and the Swedes now have to say about Rossi.
After the Lugano test, on many forums, including this one, the errors which could have been made where shown in many interesting discussions.
The Lugano testers in my opion certainly would have gone over these comments and made up their minds if there was no excess heat or there was.
If they had concluded that there was no excess heat and that Rossi had conned them, they would have stopped their involvement with Rossi.
Nevertheless Levi,Hoistad, Essen and Petterson showed up at the QX demonstration in Stockholm.
Interesting. Please elaborate. What are the implications?
West brought quar-CATs from Raleigh to Doral in or around December 2014.
IH somewhere mentioned in discovery speed test cylinders that sometimes glowed.
I imagine that the quar-CATs were essentially prior art at the start of the Doral period.
Maybe even made with QX-like horizontal clamps to easily install each test cell.
The ingredients in the cells would be a secret, of course.
The present SK type may be more like an ICP torch.
The argon cooling, maybe feed in the reactor fuel as a gas in Ar or something else, just like doing a big mass spec measurement that also reacts in the plasma... dribble in atoms of Ni and Li (Ag, H, D...)
What’s it take to build a stable 4x4 inch ICP tube-torch plasma?
QuoteSomeone went to the trouble to check out the Florida Fraud dept. or somesuch, and they found that there were only maybe 2 or 3 cases that rose to the level of millions of dollars, and it put Rossi's case at the very top or nearly the very top
Really? Who? Where documented?
- and I forgot to mention that the victims of Rossi's frauds are not complainants. That makes prosecution harder.
-------------------
To pour more fuel on the flames - there's probably no such thing as a Skeptical Swede - they're all too polite to doubt anything presented in good faith etc........and then they had Gullstrom babbling on thru the demo as well completely incomprehensible (nice distraction technique while AR's sleight of hand turns up the power). Sure they were gullible, AR knew he could get away with a live demo there rather than say at Oxford or Cambridge Universities or in the US. MIT hosts Hagelstein and Swartz wonder why he didn't put on a show there? Or why won't he allow us LENR forum members to evaluate either the QX or SK? Or BG at the MFMP? It's all patented (granted) & would have everything to gain IF it works as he is advertising to all and sundry ..... the ONLY reason he doesn't is because it doesn't work that well (to give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he has a COP of 1.5 - 2.5 same as other LENR studies} Be nice to believe there was SOMETHING behind all this nonsense after all.
Quoteseven_of_twenty wrote:
now, the current crop of Rossi claims is a Nigerian style lowest denominator scheme seeking only the dumbest and most gullible possible investors. And Rossi may yet find one. It only takes one who has more money than brains and wants Rossi's claims to be real badly enough.
@Adrian Ashfield wrote: You are a third rate hate monger who, like most here, are totally clueless about what is going on, but that doesn't stop you from fabricating opinions out of thin air.
Adrian, to paraphrase the old adage, if the Foo sh*ts, wear it.
QuoteNevertheless Levi,Hoistad, Essen and Petterson showed up at the QX demonstration in Stockholm.
In the words of Sean Connery's James Bond: "Shocking ... absolutely shocking!" (from the classic "Dr. No" if memory serves) Levi, as I said, is inscrutable on this issue. The Swedes ... well, they are in Sweden anyway are they not? So maybe they thought it good entertainment. After seeing the assembly of garbage Rossi showed there, they may be having second thoughts... or maybe they are still deluded. Who knows?
Quote... to give him the benefit of the doubt, maybe he has a COP of 1.5 - 2.5
Benefit of doubt? Ridiculous. But it's what con men live for... and on.
No benefit of the doubt then - a sad day for LENR - but then the new NANOR and Japanese studies with the new funding from Mitsubishi could bring a breakthrough. We'll see.
Fun times here. After a long quiet period we now have an angry mob of Rossiphiles dedicated to going down with the Rossi ship no matter how long it takes to sink. Time to load up on popcorn.
Or BG at the MFMP?
Bob is not that kind of experimenter- Magicsound is the experimental mainstay of MFMP.
Really? Who? Where documented?
- and I forgot to mention that the victims of Rossi's frauds are not complainants. That makes prosecution harder.
-------------------
Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions
https://www.lenr-forum.com › Forum › LENR Topics › Rossi & Industrial Heat
Aug 6, 2017 - ... more than 3 in Florida. Florida is the national leader in big money fraud such as tax fraud, Medicare fraud, defrauding individuals and so on.
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Roger
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Aug 6th 2017
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#1,295
Dewey Weaver wrote:
The emails are shocking and clear
Are they? apparently not enough to win a court case by proving a fraud that should be blatant, according to you and THH
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JedRothwell
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Roger wrote:
Are they? apparently not enough to win a court case by proving a fraud that should be blatant, according to you and THH
I wouldn't put it that way. They were not willing run the risk of losing a court case to a stupid jury, because even if they had won Rossi would probably not have paid. He would have fled the country. If he had any money left, he would have hidden it. I.H. would have to pay their lawyers for weeks more in the court, and in the end they would get nothing even if they won. It would be a Pyrrhic victory at best.
As I said, it resembled asymmetrical warfare. I.H. could lose, but they could not win the trial. So from their point of view it was best to call it off.
Criminal fraud is an entirely different matter. That is not subject to a civil case. It would not be I.H. pursuing it. That would be the police. I.H. would not have to pay anything. Whether the government finds it cost effective to pursue this I cannot say, but I am sure it is fraud. The government cannot possibly go after every lawbreaker and every white-collar criminal. It does not have the resources.
Shane D. likes this.
Thx ZOE, that was funny. Could have sworn he was talking specifically about Rossi and others:
"But their main feature is an abundance of false clues. Jones explains that, as with any conjuring trick, ''the secret is not to conceal, but to confuse.'' So he complicates his machines with what he describes as ''a number of cunning distractions, each designed to lead the scientific mind along one or other of several false trails.''
"Jones says his main conclusion from the attempts of scientists and engineers to understand his machine is that these professionals ''are remarkably gullible, and easily taken in by conjuring tricks.''
Jones observes that ''such honest individuals clearly found it hard to conceive of a machine of which large sections serve no useful purpose, and struggled to dream up mechanisms that incorporated all my decorations.''"
sigmoidal and ZenoOfElea like this.
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JedRothwell wrote:
The government cannot possibly go after every lawbreaker and every white-collar criminal. It does not have the resources.
The guvmint DOES have the resources to go after every $10M lawbreaker or white-collar criminal who submits evidence of his own fraud into a court docket. I would be surprised if there were more than 3 of them in Florida.
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JedRothwell
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[email protected] wrote:
The guvmint DOES have the resources to go after every $10M lawbreaker or white-collar criminal who submits evidence of his own fraud into a court docket. I would be surprised if there were more than 3 of them in Florida.
There are probably more than 3 in Florida. Florida is the national leader in big money fraud such as tax fraud, Medicare fraud, defrauding individuals and so on. See:
http://nypost.com/2015/07/29/s…fraud-capital-of-america/
Quote:
"Since 2007, nine regional “strike forces” of the Justice, Treasury and Health and Human Services departments have charged about 2,300 people who had falsely billed Medicare for $7 billion. . . .
The South Florida unit’s share of that? More than 1,500 defendants through last September."
That's 1500 people taking an average of $3.0 million each. Probably many of them took more than $10 million, while others took smaller amounts. That's Medicare fraud alone. There are many other kinds.
guest111
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Aug 7th 2017
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JedRothwell wrote:
There are probably more than 3 in Florida. Florida is the national leader in big money fraud such as tax fraud, Medicare fraud, defrauding individuals and so on. See:
http://nypost.com/2015/07/29/s…fraud-capital-of-america/
Quote:
"Since 2007, nine regional “strike forces” of the Justice, Treasury and Health and Human Services departments have charged about 2,300 people who had falsely billed Medicare for $7 billion. . . .
The South Florida unit’s share of that? More than 1,500 defendants through last September."
That's 1500 people taking an average of $3.0 million each. Probably many of them took more than $10 million, while others took smaller amounts. That's Medicare fraud alone. There are many other kinds.
Display More
Ostensibly, IH would be the only person harmed by any Rossi fraud, they would be the party to file suit if they so wished; but, seeinzhow, aside from more attorney's fees and bad publicity, they lost their money due to negligently poor due-diligence, on an astronomical "bet" in the first place, they'd probably have a hard time clawing back a lot or a jury having a whole lot of sympathy--the shareholders should be the ones ticked off, if anyone. Florida or the government has no interest, and no one else is harmed, unless Rossi is out publicly soliciting for new suck....err, investors. And yes, Florida is the fraud capital of the US, with all healthcare and insurance scams, many (barely) legal, and others illegal.
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#1,316
JedRothwell wrote:
There are probably more than 3 in Florida. Florida is the national leader in big money fraud such as tax fraud, Medicare fraud, defrauding individuals and so on. See:
http://nypost.com/2015/07/29/s…fraud-capital-of-america/
Quote:
"Since 2007, nine regional “strike forces” of the Justice, Treasury and Health and Human Services departments have charged about 2,300 people who had falsely billed Medicare for $7 billion. . . .
The South Florida unit’s share of that? More than 1,500 defendants through last September."
That's 1500 people taking an average of $3.0 million each. Probably many of them took more than $10 million, while others took smaller amounts. That's Medicare fraud alone. There are many other kinds.
Display More
Good data, Jed. It overlooks the qualifier "every $10M lawbreaker or white-collar criminal who submits evidence of his own fraud into a court docket. " But assuming there's >500 $10M fraudsters in Florida, there still could be 3 that have submitted evidence of their own fraud into court dockets. But I doubt it, and there would be little doubt that such fraudsters would be high priority targets for law enforcement.
JedRothwell
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#1,317
guest111 wrote:
Ostensibly, IH would be the only person harmed by any Rossi fraud, they would be the party to file suit if they so wished;
I was talking about criminal fraud. The victim does not file suit in a criminal case. The DA brings charges.
I.H. filed a counter-suit in the civil suit. That counter-suit was dismissed with prejudice along with Rossi's suit. Neither side can file suit about any aspect of this.
JedRothwell
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Aug 7th 2017
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[email protected] wrote:
But assuming there's >500 $10M fraudsters in Florida, there still could be 3 that have submitted evidence of their own fraud into court dockets.
From what I read in the business section, people who commit fraud often leave blatant evidence everywhere. They sign documents, notes and loans and then abscond with the money. It is easy to prove the case against them. I do not think that a court docket is more damning than, say, bank loan paperwork or the deed to a house you sold someone that you did not own.
[email protected] wrote:
But I doubt it, and there would be little doubt that such fraudsters would be high priority targets for law enforcement.
I do not think so. I think the highest priority for law enforcement is people who steal money from the government. Such as the 2,300 people who stole $7 billion from Medicare.
Anyway, I have no idea whether Rossi is a high priority target or a low priority target. I doubt you know that either. I hope Rossi does not know either, and I hope he is losing sleep over it. I hope he does not flee to Sweden, where he says he has lined up his next set of marks.
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#1,319
JedRothwell wrote:
I hope he does not flee to Sweden, where he says he has lined up his next set of marks.
If fraud charges are filed, the gig is up for him. Sweden would likely extradite him and even if they didn't, he's done. The fact that charges have not been filed against him speaks more than any other conjecture on anyone's part.
Fun times here. After a long quiet period we now have an angry mob of Rossiphiles dedicated to going down with the Rossi ship no matter how long it takes to sink. Time to load up on popcorn.
And hopefully no one listens to you in particular because you admit that your own posts "do not forward science".
Display MoreWest brought quar-CATs from Raleigh to Doral in or around December 2014.
IH somewhere mentioned in discovery speed test cylinders that sometimes glowed.
I imagine that the quar-CATs were essentially prior art at the start of the Doral period.
Maybe even made with QX-like horizontal clamps to easily install each test cell.
The ingredients in the cells would be a secret, of course.
The present SK type may be more like an ICP torch.
The argon cooling, maybe feed in the reactor fuel as a gas in Ar or something else, just like doing a big mass spec measurement that also reacts in the plasma... dribble in atoms of Ni and Li (Ag, H, D...)
What’s it take to build a stable 4x4 inch ICP tube-torch plasma?
Mmm. Got it. I seem to remember that Dewey was somewhat upset about Rossi when he started to talk about the QX on JONP shortly after the Doral test was over... To me it looks like Dewey was upset not because of the tech not working, but because IH had not recieved enough tech support to replicate it by themselves. He seemed also to be upset because Rosse instead of helping them to understand the Doral plant tech had been spending most of his time developing new QX tech, on which IH were totally clueless. And then we know what happened... So, as you say. IH knew very well about the QX potential. And this is probably one of the main reasons they wanted to keep the IP as of the license agreement until they absolutely had to let go.
Ehh? What? Are you not listening? I was talking about Rossi valueing the ECAT IP - as defined in the license agreement with IH (including infinite derivatives). Did you bother to read it or am I maybe arguing with the outskirts of some random AI? Do you grok §13.4 of the license agreement? What does it mean to you, for example regarding (a hyphotetical) ECatSK?
I'm not quite sure what has got you riled.
Also not sure how you equate non-working Rossi tubes with IP? Infinite derivatibves of a non-working device are not helpful.
IH bought what they thought was an industrial-scale working device. Read the specs and the (bogus, but well advertised) demo performance.
Had it worked they could have raised > $100M, paid Rossi off, and gone on to disrupt industry.
It did not work.
To square it working with facts you have to assume IH real idiots, and Rossi a real idiot (he abandoned those v stable and simple and robust devices for something more complex, less powerful, though since it also shows no sign of working I guess one is as good as another. Not according to your fantasies however.
Display MoreI'm not quite sure what has got you riled.
Also not sure how you equate non-working Rossi tubes with IP? Infinite derivatibves of a non-working device are not helpful.
IH bought what they thought was an industrial-scale working device. Read the specs and the (bogus, but well advertised) demo performance.
Had it worked they could have raised > $100M, paid Rossi off, and gone on to disrupt industry.
It did not work.
To square it working with facts you have to assume IH real idiots, and Rossi a real idiot (he abandoned those v stable and simple and robust devices for something more complex, less powerful, though since it also shows no sign of working I guess one is as good as another. Not according to your fantasies however.
Obviously you did not read the license agreement... I'm somewhat surprised since the previous "THH" operator seemed to have some background knowledge. Either I'm arguing with a THH replacement or a not properly trained/calibrated AI app... 
Had it worked they could have raised > $100M, paid Rossi off, and gone on to disrupt industry.
Of course, of course... anyone can do that... Start a blog about it - tell the world and the $$$ will line up... maybe call those brits... or chinese... ... Wait... I'm trying to recall something I've heard about ...
QuoteNo benefit of the doubt then - a sad day for LENR
The remark was about Rossi, not LENR. Rossi deserves plenty of sad days. In prison. (IMO of course, he has yet to be found guilty of fresh felonies but one can hope)
Because those MW plants were a nightmare to operate. It obviously took about 1 Rossi operator per plant to keep them running (more or less on intuition). It was simply not a scalable solution.
That doesn't make all that much sense. If they were convinced by the $10M ERV report they paid for, then they're sitting on top of a $Trillion frikken gold mine. It doesn't matter if it's "scalable" if it is TRUE. Just look at how scalable DOWNWARD it is on the nearby thread posts where Swartz hooked up a tiny Stirling motor to his PHUSOR/Nanor that lasted months.
Something else must have happened. Perhaps in addition to the scalability problems. Things like Rossi being a complete jerk, IH trying to steal the IP , superduper guvmint IRS and corporatist anti-LENR conspiracy theories,etc. Or... it didn't work and Rossi got found out to be the fraud that so many around here suspect he is.
Something bigger and drastic had to have taken place to shake them from a $Trillion tree.
IH is still pursuing LENR in other ways, more than 1 way to skin a cat. Rossi's Flintstone stragedy didn't convince them that LENR is fake.
