Rossi E-Cat SK Demo Discussion

    Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain - and Rossi has shown himself very adept at exploiting stupidity.

    Rossi supposedly bamboozled 3 scientists who had seen LENR cells operate, did the same with Levi, Got an independent 3rd party report, then a second one with 9 swedish scientists, and then leveraged that and bamboozled a Venture Capitalist. Those are NoT Stupid people.



    @[email protected] You don't understand stupidity. You seem under the strange impression that high IQ, or high education, makes people less stupid. Nothing could be further from the truth, when we are talking as here about ability to be deceived by a plausible con artist.


    Many references for this well known fact, you could start with:

    https://www.newscientist.com/a…es-people-do-dumb-things/

    or this:

    https://www.scientificamerican…people-do-foolish-things/


    As for IH, there is no evidence he bamboozled them. They did not trust him an inch. VCs judge people, and Rossi, as a person, is clearly unreliable. However, they unwisely trusted the scientists who claimed to have clear evidence from many tests, and took what they knew was a high risk high reward gamble. The scientists they relied upon are now proven to have been wrong both with unprofessional methodology and wrong calculations. Should they have done deeper DD? Sure, in retrospect. One conflating factor is no doubt that LENR sails under a cloud of being not believed by many mainstream scientistis. So mainstream rejection of the Rossi tests can be explained away as prejudice. To disentangle this you need heavyweight scientific peer review of the claims and counter-claims from unprejudiced parties. Difficult to find.


    Rossi is a genius at choosing the right field for his endeavours. In LENR he has find the perfect soil for his work. Those genuinely trying to get evidence for possible unusual effects will point out that due to the unfortunate F&P initial claims, and long history of claims without substance visible to anyone outside the field, most scientists will approach LENR with a highly skeptical mindset. That then allows Rossi leeway that would not be given him in any other field except perhaps a religious cult.

    @[email protected]


    Well, at least that guy is actually DOING something about it. He really does perceive Rossi is a con artist and he's doing more than just being a keyboard warrior.


    There is a big big difference between it being clear beyond reasonable doubt that somone is making money selling people vapourware, and proving that they are a con artist in a Court of Law. Part of that difference is the high cost of legal action, and the fact that Rossi with his shell companies and italian family is likely to be difficult to extract any money in damages from. That means you have to have awfully deep pockets and be very public spirited to take him on. Were I an IH shareholder i would not want them to do that with my money.


    Rossi falls close to the "proof of scam" side of a normal vapourware artist because of his self-professed lies to business partners. But, as you and others point out, people do lie in business and this is not necessarily fraudulent.


    If your measure of whether somone has real product is that they are pulling in money and have not been sued then you are very sadly out of touch with the reality.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    Sounds exactly what you and Bruce have been urging me to do. I agree it's difficult to even get people to visit sometimes, but otherwise we seem to be managing.


    Alan, I am very glad that that is the case, and await publications (from those with relevant qualifications) with interest.


    Anyway, you show no signs of trying to scam people so one could argue this process is less relevant in your case; science that is good will out in the end one way or another.

    I asked A.R. what happens if a customer decides to announce

    to the media they are using his product.

    1. Sam February 22, 2019 at 7:42 PM

      Hello Dr Rossi

      I am wondering what happens if the present

      customer or a future customer wants to announce

      to the media they are using the E-Cat SK.

      How would the announcement be handled?

      Regards

      Sam

    2. Andrea Rossi February 23, 2019 at 2:46 AM

      Sam:

      That will not depend on me,

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.


      If the lawyers of the owner of a

      business tell him his ass is covered it should not take long

      for a tree hugger customer to

      come forward.

    Quote from Shane D.

    As Bruce showed, it is no mystery he is out of the US. That does not mean he left because the "authorities in Florida" are hunting for him...if indeed your rumor is true. It may be for any of a number of innocent reasons, one of which is he is a citizen of Italy.


    And are they "hunting" him, or simply wanting to talk with? Big difference, as hunting implies he is a fugitive on the run. I doubt it has gone that far...yet. Yes, I can see how this SK demo may have violated his agreement with the Fl. Dept. of Professional Regulations, not to play professional Engineer anymore. Or with the Fl Dept of Health -Radiation, which has twice investigated him (Gary Wright, and Doral), when he needs a neutron detector attached to the SK, and the demo took place in his Miami condo.


    In other words, we need more info on this before deciding.

    The USA is where Rossi wants to stay.

    1. Kate February 23, 2019 at 2:11 AM

      Dear Andrea Rossi,

      Which is the Country where you can work better in the world in this period?

    2. Andrea Rossi February 23, 2019 at 2:46 AM

      Kate:

      Beyond any possible doubt, the USA.

      Warm Regards,

      A.R.


    3. Gerard McEk
      February 22, 2019 at 7:03 AM Dear Andrea,
      This week I have noticed that you reply on your blog a few hours earlier than previously.
      Is that because you are so extremely busy that you sleep 3 ours less?
      If so, then please be careful with yourself, the world (and your family) needs you.
      On the other hand maybe you are on holidays on Ponta Delgada, then enjoy your holidays, you have earned it very much!
      Kind regards, Gerard
    4. Andrea Rossi February 22, 2019 at 7:40 AM Gerard McEk:
      Yes, I am under strong pressure, the work to do is much: this is an effect of the successful I am well and good at work.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.
    Quote from sam12

    Andrea Rossi February 23, 2019 at 2:46 AM

    Sam:

    That will not depend on me,

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    Sam, doesn’t this “will not depend on me” ring an bell?


    Exactly the same Rossi blogged regarding the “customer” for the heat of the 1MW plant - which later turned out to be Rossi himself.

    Btw, in retrospective you should read what Rossi claimed about the “Customer” while he ran the Doral charade:

    https://e-catworld.com/2016/02…n-kw-is-very-competitive/

    Don’t you feel a little bit betrayed by what Rossi told you and his fan-crowd at that time?

    Quote from Forty-Two

    Btw, in retrospective you should read what Rossi claimed about the “Customer” while he ran the Doral charade:

    https://e-catworld.com/2016/02…n-kw-is-very-competitive/


    Fun link. Thanks for pointing it out!


    It has led me to a link that is even more fun .... Sifferkoll's April 2015 blog post titled "First Hand Information from Visitors of the Industrial Heat E-Cat Customer!" http://www.sifferkoll.se/siffe…rial-heat-e-cat-customer/


    The first line says ...

    I know first hand from very reliable sources that themselves have visited the Rossi/Industrial Heat E-Cat customer that the plant works very well.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    Anyway, you show no signs of trying to scam people so one could argue this process is less relevant in your case; science that is good will out in the end one way or another.


    Tell that to a scientific establishment that attempted (and in some cases succeeded) to destroy stellar reputations of scientists who dared experiment with F&P modalities, despite there being dozens of reported successful replications around the world. While I agree wholeheartedly with your statement, the reality is that good science that relies on the scientific method and withholds judgment is unfortunately the exception in this field.

    Quote from THHuxleynew


    [email protected] You don't understand stupidity. You seem under the strange impression that high IQ, or high education, makes people less stupid. Nothing could be further from the truth, when we are talking as here about ability to be deceived by a plausible con artist.

    ***So basically you're saying that smart people can be gullible. The head of the Swedish Skeptics Society who gets pulled in by a very smart and wily convicted con artist would be the epitome, the very definition of gullible. Someone who alongside 8 others couldn't measure power in and heat out. This to me just stretches incredulity.



    As for IH, there is no evidence he bamboozled them.

    ***He got them to pay $10M for a year long demo of his device, and even the legal contract as posted here on this thread says that it was VALIDATED. Again, you stretch credulity of definitions.



    They did not trust him an inch. VCs judge people, and Rossi, as a person, is clearly unreliable.

    ***As you point out, he is a convicted fraudster. At some point the RDS narrative stretches so thin that at the very least, you guys should be dropping the attitude.



    However, they unwisely trusted the scientists who claimed to have clear evidence from many tests, and took what they knew was a high risk high reward gamble.

    ***They are experts in Industrial Heat, are they not? They know how to measure heat. They paid $10M validating the IP. They could have saved that $10M by listening to an average 7th grader and bringing a thermometer to their own demo. Can you see where the narrative stretches so thin that at the very least the RDSers should be dropping their attitude?



    The scientists they relied upon are now proven to have been wrong both with unprofessional methodology and wrong calculations.

    ***Again. This is like the 3rd time this has been asserted on this thread. Go ahead and point out where this has been ... ahem.... PROVEN.... The FACT that this has been asserted without pointing to where the proof is, well, uhh, YET AGAIN it stretches credulity so far that at the very loeast RDSers should be dropping their attitude.


    Should they have done deeper DD? Sure, in retrospect.

    ***They really should change their name.



    One conflating factor is no doubt that LENR sails under a cloud of being not believed by many mainstream scientistis.

    ***All the more reason to be extra vigilant and have as you say "done deeper DD". AGAIN, the narrative stretches credulity to the point that RDSers should be dropping their attitude.



    So mainstream rejection of the Rossi tests can be explained away as prejudice.

    ***Your attempts at "explaining away" just stretch credulity to the point that we should all be asking why you have such an attitude towards people who notice that stretched narrative.



    To disentangle this you need heavyweight scientific peer review

    ***Different ball of wax entirely because (see above) of the deep corruption in the scientific peer review process as secured by the hot fusion boys who were there first with their beatiful Ponzi scheme. Rossi is not a scientist. He said to judge him by "in mercato veritas" and , sure enough, there is STILL nothing 'in mercato' so there is no veritas.


    of the claims and counter-claims from unprejudiced parties. Difficult to find.

    ***That's what inductive touchpoints are all about. Some are more subtle than others, such as the Wikipedia inductive touchpoint that RDSers were dancing all over until Rossi said he would sue Wikipedia for libel. So after that libel inductive touchpoint, the RDSers were silent at Wikipedia. Another inductive touchpoint is the Rossi v. Darden trial, which rose to the level of entering information onto a court docket at the risk of perjury but did not rise to the level of preponderance of evidence proof and fell even further from the standard of criminal beyond reasonable doubt proof. One of the subtle inductive touchpoints is what you keep saying, how the Swedes were somehow "proven" to miss an artifact and yet you don't simply point to where that proof is. The RDSers really like to throw around the words 'proof' and 'fact' when what they really mean is opinion and assertion.




    Rossi is a genius at choosing the right field for his endeavours.

    ***Well, now ,you have found a place finally where we agree. Rossi is a genius. Either he is a criminal mastermind genius who bamboozled a bunch of smart people so he could run the Nigerian Gambit on dumb people, or... he has LENR in a box. Either way he's a genius and y'all need to start treating him like one and dropping the attitude towards those who see the possibilities.


    In LENR he has find the perfect soil for his work.

    ***This is directly attributable to the sorry state that Science finds itself in these days. Blame can be laid directly at the feet of the $multiBillion Ponzi scheme Hot Fusioneers.


    Those genuinely trying to get evidence for possible unusual effects will point out that due to the unfortunate F&P initial claims,

    ***What was unfortunate about F&P's initial claims was that they ever used the word nuclear, ever. They should have said it was a superduper resonating chemical effect and they could use the help of their nuclear colleagues to rule out some outlandish conjectures. They should never have trusted the field of science to give them a fair shake. Nope, not when there are multi$billion public troughs those guys are feeding from.


    and long history of claims without substance visible to anyone outside the field,

    ***What a fascinating qualifier you just threw in there. The FACT that you needed to throw in such a qualifier points to 2 things: your stretched narrative and the need for RDSers to drop their attitude.

    https://disq.us/url?url=https%…P5wOoF5Ijo0Q&cuid=3763762


    most scientists will approach LENR with a highly skeptical mindset.

    ***Apparently according to your stretched narrative viewpoint, not skeptical enough. A convicted fraudster can hoodwink a bunch of LENR scientists in a serial fashion and then slide $10M from a company called Industrial Heat by "pretending" to produce heat.



    That then allows Rossi leeway that would not be given him in any other field except perhaps a religious cult.

    ***Leeway. You go from a stretched narrative where everyone should have been highly tuned to errors and frauds to somehow they're all giving leeway. Yet AGAIN, this shows how far the RDS narrative is stretched and that you folks need to drop the attitude.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    There is a big big difference between it being clear beyond reasonable doubt that somone is making money selling people vapourware, and proving that they are a con artist in a Court of Law.

    ***Yes, and I am so very happy to see you aware of these 2 differences in the burden of proof. Rossi has met the burden of proof that he is not a criminal selling vaporware because of all those items entered into the docket under oath. If the evidence were so compelling, the judge would have referred it to the criminal authorities. In fact, the evidence didn't even meet the standard of Preponderance . Yet all the RDSers like to throw around words like 'proof' and 'fact' in ways that basically operate outside the definition of the words.





    Part of that difference is the high cost of legal action,

    ***And yet in Rossi v. Darden we have seen it go to the point that both sides agreed to a settlement. Industrial Heat had paid $10M for a validation of the IP and had to return all the IP. They basically got nothing but a bunch of legal fees and no longer have the right to sue over this matter, leaving the VALIDATION of Rossi's IP as per the contract out in the open for everyone to see.


    and the fact that Rossi with his shell companies and italian family is likely to be difficult to extract any money in damages from.

    ***The same is true of Darden and his companies who are accused of declaring bankruptcy in order to avoid paying out.



    That means you have to have awfully deep pockets and be very public spirited to take him on. Were I an IH shareholder i would not want them to do that with my money.

    ***Yup. And yet, that's what they did, so maybe someone should pick up the phone and oust those guys at Industrial Heat who don't know how to measure Heat.




    Rossi falls close to the "proof of scam" side of a normal vapourware artist

    *** Rossi has a legal document that says his IP was validated and that someone paid $10M for that, all the while returning his IP. If there was "proof of scam" then the trial would have proceeded to the end. The settlement is proof that he did not meet the Preponderance of Evidence standard. PROOF.



    because of his self-professed lies to business partners. But, as you and others point out, people do lie in business and this is not necessarily fraudulent.

    ***Let's see where we are right now in your stretched narrative. Rossi is a con artist who got some Industrial Heat company to mismeasure Heat and pay $10M for validating the IP,

    who lies about stuff but it is not necessarily fraudulent even though the RDS crowd continues to loudly proclaim FRAUDULENT whenever they get a chance. You started out this post with the proof standards of Preponderance of Evidence and Beyond Reasonable Doubt but by this time you have devolved into what appears to be Woulda Coulda Shoulda.



    If your measure of whether somone has real product is that they are pulling in money and have not been sued

    ***That is not my measure, so you've generated a straw argument inside that there conditional statement.



    then you are very sadly out of touch with the reality.

    ***My measurement of PROOF in a legal case is the legal standard. What is YOUR measurement? Rossi was accused of fraud and the legal case did not meet the minimalist Preponderance standard let alone the higher criminal standard. It would be like Rossi claiming UNDER OATH that he couldn't have been defrauding IH at that time because he was across town robbing banks. The judge would have referred that to criminal authorities for a slamdunk.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    They did see it from the get-go. While the test was underway, they told me it wasn't working.


    They didn't tell me it was fake; just that it wasn't working.

    This matches the Fred Flintstone hypothesis. Rossi rigs it to the point that it will only work if he is there to work it. It's not quite fake, but it's also not quite ready for prime time and it had to go to the legal definitions and lawyer fees over such a poorly written contract. They pay the $10M per the VALIDATION clause in the contract but start balking when they realize they're stuck with the guy. IH gets frustrated with Rossi, tries to separate him from his IP. Out of their frustration, they tell you the stuff doesn't work.

    Quote

    Just FYI, as far back as 2016, Fred Zoepfl has been stirring up local authorities with outrageously exaggerated claims against Rossi. Some of the state filings that he has made were released to the public, which make for a hilarious read. The guy is so over-the-top it makes Dewey seem like a true blue boy scout.

    I can't and I doubt anyone will read that wall of crap from Siffer. Would you please quote and highlight what Fred Zoepfl has written or done with regard to Rossi which you find the most outrageous. So we can discuss just how exaggerated it is. Could you please focus on more recent outrages?


    Shane D.

    Quote

    What is truth, and what not? [that Rossi posted about himself]

    There is no reason to believe any of it is true any more than there is reason to think Rossi built a high power fusion reactor which he controls from his Miami condo absent any permits, regulatory inspection, or any interaction with local and state governments.


    Quote

    Mind boggling? What a crock. You're employing an obvious rhetorical device. You keep saying he's a fraud, a proven fraud and I keep saying PICK UP The PHONE. You nitpick because I'm not spoon feeding a bunch of crazed zealots what the phone number is, and that's MIND BOGGLING to you? What a gigantic pile of bovine Excrement

    Several government agencies in Florida have been contacted as has the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (about an idiotic item in a class syllabus which mentions ecats). Nobody is very excited to initiate costly and elaborate court actions against Rossi because nobody alerted about him seems to believe his claims are real. If the claims aren't real, the risk is low. I suspect someone will get on his case eventually. Not for fraud probably (too complex to prove) but about violation of licensing and zoning regulations, claiming he's an engineer when he is not, etc. etc.


    If you wish to make input, please keep it short if you want it to be read, contact:


    Florida Board of Professional Engineers (FBPE)

    "... last July they issued a "Cease & Desist Notice" to Rossi's Leonardo Corporation. That Notice was supposed to keep Leonardo from performing any engineering activities unless and until Leonardo hired a Florida-licensed professional engineer and obtained a "Certificate of Authorization" from the FBPE."


    Florida Bureau of Radiation Control ( [email protected] )

    Ms. Cindy Becker, Chief, Florida Bureau of Radiation Control (BRC) has been contacted and a complaint has been filed


    Just FYI--Florida Regulations for Particle Accelerators (such as the one supposedly used in a recent Rossi demo):

    http://www.floridahealth.gov/e…e-5-part-8-03-21-2016.pdf


    SGS ([email protected] and [email protected]) wrote back to a complaint about misuse of their certificates:

    "... I can confirm the way Leonardo Corporation shows the SGS Certificate, which was issued to another company and is apparently used to represent a different pressure machine, is considered a misappropriation of the SGS certificate. As such, SGS will take the appropriate action against Leonardo Corporation..."


    So much for Rossi's certification!


    to: [email protected]

    "[your]21 JAN 19 press release from Leonardo Corporation is fraudulent and violates numerous Federal and Florida laws as well as PRWeb policies. "Doctor" Rossi is not a real doctor (no Ph.D. or equivalent degree) and in fact, he has no STEM-related degree of any kind, so he is an impostor. He has claimed for at least eight years that his E-Cat devices use some type of weird "cold fusion" ("low energy nuclear reaction") nuclear process that does not produce ionizing radiation or radioactivity, but as a Ph.D. nuclear engineer, I can assure you that is physically impossible. Rossi has even recently claimed on his blog that viewing one of his devices in operation caused him to develop "cancer" from radiation overexposure. Clearly, he is a pathological liar in need of professional psychiatric help. Lastly, his device cannot possibly be an "industrial product" because he has no industrial safety certification whatsoever from an OSHA-approved Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory (NRTL). He falsely claims on

    his ecat.com website that an old (2012) generic safety certification (issued in Italy to another company that no longer even exists) is valid for use in the USA, but it is obviously not. This claim alone constitutes fraud under Florida and Federal laws."


    The above are just a few illustrations of actions vs Rossi, his lies, his illegal activities and false claims. More is going on but I have no time to search it out. Besides, everyone knows I never research or read anything. LOL.


    PS: edited to add this line, solely to annoy @[email protected]


    Quote from seven_of_twenty

    Several government agencies in Florida have been contacted

    ***Which WBSDJS agencies are those, so that the RDSers can contact them?



    as

    has the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (about an idiotic item in a class syllabus which mentions ecats).

    ***So, like the Wikipedia libels, basically just a harASSment campaign.



    Nobody is very excited to initiate costly and elaborate court actions against Rossi because nobody alerted about him seems to believe his claims are real.

    ***There is nothing costly nor elaborate in taking statements which have already been submitted UNDER OATH and referring them to criminal authorities.



    If the claims aren't real, the risk is low.

    ***Then at some point it's time to just say STFU.



    I suspect someone will get on his case eventually.

    ***I have no doubt about that. The RDS crowd is real good at harassment.



    Not for fraud probably (too complex to prove)

    ***This is an admission that Rossi does not meet the burden of proof of fraud. It's right in the court documents. It is an inductive touchpoint.



    but about violation of licensing and zoning regulations,

    ***Harassment


    claiming he's an engineer when he is not,

    ***Harassment


    etc. etc.

    ***And more harassment. Oh well, thanks for admitting to the FACT that Rossi is provably not a fraud.

    No I don’t feel betrayed but that link

    you gave sure has me thinking.

    Quote

    Oh well, thanks for admitting to the FACT that Rossi is provably not a fraud.

    I marvel at pure sh*t statements like this. Of course I never did and would not admit to such an inane statement. Rossi, of course, is nothing but a fraud and has been so for at least 20 years, leaving nothing but unfulfilled claims and promises behind him and at least one certified environmental disaster which could have and probably did poison people. Gee folks, I do hope that is clear enough?


    I don't know if this person's writing is sincere or simply insane. When someone cites that Rossi claims something as evidence for that something (for example, the statement in Wikipedia attributing a claim to Rossi), then something really they have something wrong upstairs.

    This is the 2nd time you have edited a post AFTER someone has aalready commented on it, a traditional slimeball maneuver.


    This stuff you added AFTER I posted this below. It changes the nature of what you were commenting on and the context of what I was saying.




    Several government agencies in Florida have been contacted


    ***Which WBSDJS agencies are those, so that the RDSers can contact them?

    Quote from seven_of_twenty



    I marvel at pure sh*t statements like this. Of course I never did and would not admit to such an inane statement.

    ***Notice that you didn't comment on the 99% rest of the article. And also notice that you go right back to your bullstuff arguing that he's a fraud without PICKING UP THE PHONE nor even acknowledging the legal standard of the evidence of criminal fraud. Rossi definitely meets the legal standard of NOT being a fraud by virtue of the legal statements he has submitted UNDER:OATH in that legal case, if those were so blatantly fraudulent as the RDSers like to pretend, then he'd be in jail right now. The judge would have made that phone call herself.




    Rossi, of course, 5is nothing but a fraud and has been so for at least 20 years, leaving nothing but unfulfilled claims and promises behind him

    ***Then PICK UP THE PHONE like FrankZ77 did.

    http://www.sifferkoll.se/siffe…physisist-malfunctioning/

    After action note: You DID encourage others to pick up the phone, by editing your post AFTERWARDS. This is a traditional slimeball maneuver.



    and at least one certified environmental disaster which could have and probably did poison people. Gee folks, I do hope that is clear enough?

    ***Clear enough to pick up the phone. Clear enough for someone as Worldly and Wily as a venture capitalist to be Wary of him when signing a $11M contract. But not clear enough for the judge in the LEGAL case to pick up the phone and notify criminal authorities. Clear enough for ya?





    When someone cites that Rossi claims something as evidence for that something (for example, the statement in Wikipedia attributing a claim to Rossi), then something really they have something wrong upstairs.

    ***The CONTEXT

    https://e-catworld.com/2013/05/27/rossi-vs-wikipedia/

    was that prior to that statement being put up and unchallenged for 6 years was a ton of libelous RDS activity on Wikipedia. It means that the RDSers can't survive in the environment where libelous content is removed or even acted on in,.... you guessed it.... a court of LAW. And it is in a court of law that Rossi's IP was contractually enforced as VALIDATED. The RDSers can't handle these inductive touchstones, so they downshift into insults of other posters rather than talk about the issues. In this case the downshift is accompanied by a traditional slimeball maneuver but at least the additional information is appreciated.

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