The Validation referred to in the contract was the plant test in Ferrara. It has nothing to do with Doral, or a year long test. The Validation is the one where Rossi claimed that the government required him to reduce the number of reactors tested to a mere 18 of the 50+ ones in the plant. Rossi made the legal excuse up, and the test was an hour short of the contract period.
Note the Big Frankie’s on the roof of the plant in Ferrara during the Validation.
The Validation referred to in the contract was the plant test in Ferrara. It has nothing to do with Doral, or a year long test. The Validation is the one where Rossi claimed that the government required him to reduce the number of reactors tested to a mere 18 of the 50+ ones in the plant. Rossi made the legal excuse up, and the test was an hour short of the contract period.
Note the Big Frankie’s on the roof of the plant in Ferrara during the Validation.
If the VALIDATION in the LEGAL contract was INVALID then IH would not have paid the $1
0M. The LEGAL Settlement establishes that as the contract Legally Enforced. And IH nor Rossi can sue eachother over that contract ever again. It's an inductive touchstone.
They basically only tried to invalidate the validation after they realized they couldn't get Fred Flintstone's earthmover dinosaur to work without Fred Flintstone. ,Also, if the validation were invalid the court would have compelled Rossi to pay the money back.
The $10 million payment, after the Validation in Ferrara appeared to have been completed successfully (more or less) required a transfer of IP to IH, such that they could build their own functioning devices, and Rossi was required to be available to help IH to get the stuff working.
The $10 million payment, after the Validation in Ferrara appeared to have been completed successfully (more or less) required a transfer of IP to IH, such that they could build their own functioning devices, and Rossi was required to be available to help IH to get the stuff working.
***Then it is a real simple breach of contract case. IH lost -- they didn't get their money back. Not only that, but that legal contract is solidified as enforced and they cannot sue over it due to the terms of the settlement. That makes Rossi's IP LEGALLY VALIDATED. That is what is solidified in the legal documents of the case. The legal FACTS of this case counter your ASSERTIONS.
***Then it is a real simple breach of contract case. IH lost -- they didn't get their money back. Not only that, but that legal contract is solidified as enforced and they cannot sue over it due to the terms of the settlement. That makes Rossi's IP LEGALLY VALIDATED. That is what is solidified in the legal documents of the case. The legal FACTS of this case counter your ASSERTIONS.
The legal facts are that Ross lied about changing some of the Validation parameters. He made up the municipal restrictions that “required” him to reduce the number of reactors. It was supposed to be the whole 1 MW plant working for the Validation. Just because he cannot be sued due to the final settlement restrictions it does not mean that his IP was legally validated. The facts are that IH performed their end of the contract, and Rossi did not uphold his end of the contract.
I don't think I've ever witnessed a more screwed up interpretation of anything.
Kevkel's wiring makes for some otherworldly interpretations.
The legal facts are that Ross lied about changing some of the Validation parameters. He made up the municipal restrictions that “required” him to reduce the number of reactors. It was supposed to be the whole 1 MW plant working for the Validation. Just because he cannot not be sued due to the final settlement restrictions it does not mean that his IP was legally validated. The facts are that IH performed their end of the contract, and Rossi did not uphold his end of the contract.
Thanks to Shane upthread, here is the Contract. $10M was paid after the Validation.
This is from the "License Agreement" (#001-02 in the court documents) regarding the IP payment:
(b) Provided that such date is at least 120 Business Days following the date of this
Agreement (unless otherwise agreed by the Company), wiithin five Business Days
following (a) notifìcation to the Compâny that the Plant is complete and ready for
Validation, and (b) satisfaction of the Conditions Precedent, the Company will
deliver Ten Million Dollars ($10,000, 000) to TD Bank, at its office in Míami Beach,
Florida, USA (or another bank agreed upon by Leonardo and the Company), to be
held in escrow pursuant to an escrow agreement acceptable to Leonardo and the
Company. Suçh escrow agent (the 'Escrow Agent") shall pay the escrowed
$ 10,000,000 to Leonardo immediately after (i) Validation is achieved as provided in
Section 4 hereof, and (ii) the E'Cat IP has been validated and is available for
immediate delivery to the Company in accordance with the procedures set forth in
Schedule 3.2(b) attached hereto.
Validation as provided in section 4.
The Validation referred to in the contract was the plant test in Ferrara. It has nothing to do with Doral, or a year long test. The Validation is the one where Rossi claimed that the government required him to reduce the number of reactors tested to a mere 18 of the 50+ ones in the plant. Rossi made the legal excuse up, and the test was an hour short of the contract period.
Note the Big Frankie’s on the roof of the plant in Ferrara during the Validation.
I believe in his deposition he came up with another reason along with that; the noise would have been too loud for the neighbors. Something like that. Makes me think of that stethoscope he used to listen in on the 1MW reaction. 
The legal facts are that Ross lied about changing some of the Validation parameters.
***Then tell it to the judge. Maybe she'll change the whole damned settlement based upon your assertion. But I doubt it, and it doesn't change any other legal facts about the case.
He made up the municipal restrictions that “required” him to reduce the number of reactors.
***Tell it to the judge. Pick up the phone.
It was supposed to be the whole 1 MW plant working for the Validation.
***Look at the contract. A validation is a validation, and IH paid $10M for it.
Just because he cannot not be sued due to the final settlement restrictions it does not mean that his IP legally validated.
***Yes it does. We can have that conversation if you like, or we can continue to see your posts filled with ASSERTIONs that you label as FACTS. Which is it?
The facts are that IH performed their end of the contract, and Rossi did not uphold his end of the contract.
***NO. The facts are that IH paid $10 for that validation and that contract was fulfilled. That's solidified in the settlement. IH had to withdraw all allegations of fraud and dispute over their end of the contract, and so did Rossi. Just because you don't like it, just because you like to ASSERT where a FACT is called for, doesn't make your ASSERTION a FACT. Learn what a FACT is.
Validation as provided in section 4.
And Validation that IH paid $10M for.
I would have sat through angry neighbors yelling and even a municipal fine for $10 million.
I don't think I've ever witnessed a more screwed up interpretation of anything.
Kevkel's wiring makes for some otherworldly interpretations.
***Then COUNTER those interpretations with FACTs, Dewey. You were THERE. You are part of this gigantic blinking light FAILURE. You are a failure. Instead of throwing out insults, respond with facts and legitimate argumentation.
Shane - Rossi made a last minute claim that local laws prevented him from generating over a certain amount of power. A total lie - there was no such law.
The facts are that IH performed their end of the contract, and Rossi did not uphold his end of the contract.
***NO. The facts are that IH paid $10 for that validation and that contract was fulfilled. That's solidified in the settlement. IH had to withdraw all allegations of fraud and dispute over their end of the contract, and so did Rossi. Just because you don't like it, just because you like to ASSERT where a FACT is called for, doesn't make your ASSERTION a FACT. Learn what a FACT is.
A contract requires that both parties fulfill their contractual obligations to the best of their intent and ability.
Rossi was required to deliver IP sufficient for IH to replicate the ecats once the $10 million money was in escrow and the 24 hour Validation was completed.
Shane - Rossi made a last minute claim that local laws prevented him from generating over a certain amount of power. A total lie - there was no such law.
OMG, Dewey found the blinking red light that will dismantle this whole settlement! Time for Rossiphiles to clutch their pearls because the judge will now throw out the entire settlement based upon one of the things Dewey said! /s , for those of you in Rio Linda
A contract requires that both parties fulfill their contractual obligations to the best of their intent and ability.
***That is the contract which the court upheld as part of the settlement. Take it up with the court. In order for it to be a valid settlement, both sides had to withdraw their accusations of fraud, and even accusations of breach of that contract and agree not to sue over this matter, ever again.
Rossi was required to deliver IP sufficient for IH to replicate the ecats once the $10 million money was in escrow and the 24 hour Validation was completed.
***And the court upheld that as the case. That is a FACT. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it aint a fact.
Kevkel - it has proven out to be useless to point out facts to you because you are not able to recognize or acknowledge them. You are also not able to interpret contractual terms or locate a factual source to support anything. Instead you just spew senseless noise which is the new Rossian way.
You're now helping destroy what is left of the crook which many of us greatly appreciate.
KevMo is to be applauded for enlivening this thread. He argues strongly, and that is a good thing because his arguments do not stand up to scrutiny, and showing this helps to expose the peculiarities of this case, and provides those who have not followed it for many years with context.
You don't understand stupidity. You seem under the strange impression that high IQ, or high education, makes people less stupid. Nothing could be further from the truth, when we are talking as here about ability to be deceived by a plausible con artist.
So basically you're saying that smart people can be gullible. The head of the Swedish Skeptics Society who gets pulled in by a very smart and wily convicted con artist would be the epitome, the very definition of gullible. Someone who alongside 8 others couldn't measure power in and heat out. This to me just stretches incredulity.
I guess that is the root of your misjudgement here. You accept proof from authority, without examining that authority. I, too, found it strange that a self-proclaimed skeptic should be so unskeptical when assessing Rossi's claims. But his actions and writing speak much louder than any claimed previous interest. Have you read his original reports, and compared them with the other accounts? Because I, and some other here, did. You show your lack of research and general knowledge by imagining that a theoretical physicist in his old age would be a good judge of scams, or able to do experimental measurements. I've known many theoretical physicists - in old age they are often wonderful people: inspiring, funny. But they have a tendency to take up religion or mysticism (Polkinghorne, Penrose) and are characterised by a child-like optimism that is engaging but not what is needed in this case. Few of them have any knowledge of practical measurement issues.
You highlight here what Rossi does best. He talks well and cleverly in abstract terms, and can convince clever people. That sort of goes with his actual (as opposed to pretend) qualifications: a B.A. equivalent in philosophy. See also Marci's revealing blog post as linked here various times in (infinity? I dont remember) magazine about Rossi's charisma.
They did not trust him an inch. VCs judge people, and Rossi, as a person, is clearly unreliable.
As you point out, he is a convicted fraudster. At some point the RDS narrative stretches so thin that at the very least, you guys should be dropping the attitude.
He was convicted of lying and breaking regulations but not of farud. As I've pointed out, convictions for fraud when people are selling technology that does not work are difficult to make. however i'm glad we can agree that he is a fraudster. Don't you think Occam's razor would therefore weight the balance towards fraud in this case as well even without the copious additional evidence we have posted?
However, they unwisely trusted the scientists who claimed to have clear evidence from many tests, and took what they knew was a high risk high reward gamble.
They are experts in Industrial Heat, are they not? They know how to measure heat. They paid $10M validating the IP. They could have saved that $10M by listening to an average 7th grader and bringing a thermometer to their own demo. Can you see where the narrative stretches so thin that at the very least the RDSers should be dropping their attitude?
Again you show a lack of research. IH had no significant in-house technical expertise, and relied unwisely on others, as you do, and Rossi's employee (who went to work for them), until after it was abundantly clear Rossi's measuremnt techniques were wrong. So I guess you should not criticise them for this, but I do.
The scientists they relied upon are now proven to have been wrong both with unprofessional methodology and wrong calculations.
Again. This is like the 3rd time this has been asserted on this thread. Go ahead and point out where this has been ... ahem.... PROVEN.... The FACT that this has been asserted without pointing to where the proof is, well, uhh, YET AGAIN it stretches credulity so far that at the very loeast RDSers should be dropping their attitude.
https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/ClarkeTcommentont.pdf
Then ask Paradigmnoia and others here to summarise the lively and combative discussion that paralleled that report here.
As for unprofessional: they made it appear in the report that they conducted the whole experiment. In fact Rossi was there for the critical parts, and his worker ran it, the Swedes made flying visits. What would you call that? (There are a few other instances too - I've just summarised the least technical one).
So mainstream rejection of the Rossi tests can be explained away as prejudice.
Your attempts at "explaining away" just stretch credulity to the point that we should all be asking why you have such an attitude towards people who notice that stretched narrative.
That sounds good, but is devoid of evidence. Put it up, or accept this is hot air - in that you have something in common with Rossi.
of the claims and counter-claims from unprejudiced parties. Difficult to find.
That's what inductive touchpoints are all about. Some are more subtle than others, such as the Wikipedia inductive touchpoint that RDSers were dancing all over until Rossi said he would sue Wikipedia for libel. So after that libel inductive touchpoint, the RDSers were silent at Wikipedia. Another inductive touchpoint is the Rossi v. Darden trial, which rose to the level of entering information onto a court docket at the risk of perjury but did not rise to the level of preponderance of evidence proof and fell even further from the standard of criminal beyond reasonable doubt proof. One of the subtle inductive touchpoints is what you keep saying, how the Swedes were somehow "proven" to miss an artifact and yet you don't simply point to where that proof is. The RDSers really like to throw around the words 'proof' and 'fact' when what they really mean is opinion and assertion.
You apply this meta-logic wrongly. And have an argument based on your personalisation of other commentators. Always a bad sign. In Rossi's case - unlike the more general one of LENR - we have a lot of positive evidence of Rossi's wrong science, deceit, PR genius, etc. The evaluation here does not need complex science acumen. You will remember my summary of the glaring measurement errors made and never admitted by Rossi that explain his false positive results. I've noticed this strand of your argument: you take something and reply to it out of context. LENR is difficult to prove or disprove - does that mean Rossi's flakiness is therefore difficult to prove? Not at all.
Rossi is a genius at choosing the right field for his endeavours.
Well, now ,you have found a place finally where we agree. Rossi is a genius. Either he is a criminal mastermind genius who bamboozled a bunch of smart people so he could run the Nigerian Gambit on dumb people, or... he has LENR in a box. Either way he's a genius and y'all need to start treating him like one and dropping the attitude towards those who see the possibilities.
Again, out of context. Why should I see possibilities in somone who is a proven liar, and has proven good at hoodwinking people? Sure, you can admire the skill, but not the occupation.
most scientists will approach LENR with a highly skeptical mindset.
Apparently according to your stretched narrative viewpoint, not skeptical enough. A convicted fraudster can hoodwink a bunch of LENR scientists in a serial fashion and then slide $10M from a company called Industrial Heat by "pretending" to produce heat.
You are either not applying logic here, or not thinking. Consider, Rossi's endeavours were advertised to 10s of 1000s of scientists, one way or another (perhaps more). Of those, maybe a few 100 were seriously interested enough to investigate. Of those, one or two, selected by Rossi as good marks, are the ones we here from selected to write these glowing reports. I'd say less than 10 unskeptical out of 10,000 counts as most skeptical. Would not you? The rest follows from what I've said.
That then allows Rossi leeway that would not be given him in any other field except perhaps a religious cult.
Leeway. You go from a stretched narrative where everyone should have been highly tuned to errors and frauds to somehow they're all giving leeway. Yet AGAIN, this shows how far the RDS narrative is stretched and that you folks need to drop the attitude.
The same lack of context. Mainstream science is pretty skeptical - many here would say too much so. But Rossi has never subjected his devices to evaluation by mainstream anyone. His evaluators are carefully picked Rossi sympathisers. IH was, for Rossi, an aberration where he had to ante up the goods to get that large amount of money. Do you not remember what happened when NASA offered to validate his early stuff?
Apologies to those who have blocked KevMo. He has this thing about RDS - no idea what this means but it sure looms large in his thought processes.
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As for IH, there is no evidence he bamboozled them.
***He got them to pay $10M for a year long demo of his device, and even the legal contract as posted here on this thread says that it was VALIDATED. Again, you stretch credulity of definitions.
They did not trust him an inch. VCs judge people, and Rossi, as a person, is clearly unreliable.
***As you point out, he is a convicted fraudster. At some point the RDS narrative stretches so thin that at the very least, you guys should be dropping the attitude.
However, they unwisely trusted the scientists who claimed to have clear evidence from many tests, and took what they knew was a high risk high reward gamble.
***They are experts in Industrial Heat, are they not? They know how to measure heat. They paid $10M validating the IP. They could have saved that $10M by listening to an average 7th grader and bringing a thermometer to their own demo. Can you see where the narrative stretches so thin that at the very least the RDSers should be dropping their attitude?
The scientists they relied upon are now proven to have been wrong both with unprofessional methodology and wrong calculations.
***Again. This is like the 3rd time this has been asserted on this thread. Go ahead and point out where this has been ... ahem.... PROVEN.... The FACT that this has been asserted without pointing to where the proof is, well, uhh, YET AGAIN it stretches credulity so far that at the very loeast RDSers should be dropping their attitude.
Should they have done deeper DD? Sure, in retrospect.
***They really should change their name.
One conflating factor is no doubt that LENR sails under a cloud of being not believed by many mainstream scientistis.
***All the more reason to be extra vigilant and have as you say "done deeper DD". AGAIN, the narrative stretches credulity to the point that RDSers should be dropping their attitude.
So mainstream rejection of the Rossi tests can be explained away as prejudice.
***Your attempts at "explaining away" just stretch credulity to the point that we should all be asking why you have such an attitude towards people who notice that stretched narrative.
To disentangle this you need heavyweight scientific peer review
***Different ball of wax entirely because (see above) of the deep corruption in the scientific peer review process as secured by the hot fusion boys who were there first with their beatiful Ponzi scheme. Rossi is not a scientist. He said to judge him by "in mercato veritas" and , sure enough, there is STILL nothing 'in mercato' so there is no veritas.
of the claims and counter-claims from unprejudiced parties. Difficult to find.
***That's what inductive touchpoints are all about. Some are more subtle than others, such as the Wikipedia inductive touchpoint that RDSers were dancing all over until Rossi said he would sue Wikipedia for libel. So after that libel inductive touchpoint, the RDSers were silent at Wikipedia. Another inductive touchpoint is the Rossi v. Darden trial, which rose to the level of entering information onto a court docket at the risk of perjury but did not rise to the level of preponderance of evidence proof and fell even further from the standard of criminal beyond reasonable doubt proof. One of the subtle inductive touchpoints is what you keep saying, how the Swedes were somehow "proven" to miss an artifact and yet you don't simply point to where that proof is. The RDSers really like to throw around the words 'proof' and 'fact' when what they really mean is opinion and assertion.
Rossi is a genius at choosing the right field for his endeavours.
***Well, now ,you have found a place finally where we agree. Rossi is a genius. Either he is a criminal mastermind genius who bamboozled a bunch of smart people so he could run the Nigerian Gambit on dumb people, or... he has LENR in a box. Either way he's a genius and y'all need to start treating him like one and dropping the attitude towards those who see the possibilities.
In LENR he has find the perfect soil for his work.
***This is directly attributable to the sorry state that Science finds itself in these days. Blame can be laid directly at the feet of the $multiBillion Ponzi scheme Hot Fusioneers.
Those genuinely trying to get evidence for possible unusual effects will point out that due to the unfortunate F&P initial claims,
***What was unfortunate about F&P's initial claims was that they ever used the word nuclear, ever. They should have said it was a superduper resonating chemical effect and they could use the help of their nuclear colleagues to rule out some outlandish conjectures. They should never have trusted the field of science to give them a fair shake. Nope, not when there are multi$billion public troughs those guys are feeding from.
and long history of claims without substance visible to anyone outside the field,
***What a fascinating qualifier you just threw in there. The FACT that you needed to throw in such a qualifier points to 2 things: your stretched narrative and the need for RDSers to drop their attitude.
https://disq.us/url?url=https%…P5wOoF5Ijo0Q&cuid=3763762
most scientists will approach LENR with a highly skeptical mindset.
***Apparently according to your stretched narrative viewpoint, not skeptical enough. A convicted fraudster can hoodwink a bunch of LENR scientists in a serial fashion and then slide $10M from a company called Industrial Heat by "pretending" to produce heat.
That then allows Rossi leeway that would not be given him in any other field except perhaps a religious cult.
***Leeway. You go from a stretched narrative where everyone should have been highly tuned to errors and frauds to somehow they're all giving leeway. Yet AGAIN, this shows how far the RDS narrative is stretched and that you folks need to drop the attitude.
...because of his self-professed lies to business partners.
I'm far from sure what lies were told about this episode to who and by whom. Someone was surely lied to, but Hydrofusion are still (as of Stockholm at least) on good terms with Rossi, so it's a bit of a mystery.
