Is there any connection between Holmid's theory and ball lightning phenomena, since (at least to me) both seem counter-intuitive for similar reasons?
NASA Report on Low-Energy Photo-Nuclear Experiments
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To reconcile the "incredible density" with ordinary physical chemistry, can we assume that the loss of one, or even two, degrees of freedom in a surface environment might explain the formation of ultra dense deuterium. So the packing on a solid surface might enable not only charge-charge shielding, but also relatively fixed positional proximities not seen in any ordinary gaseous context.
As far as I have read, it doesn't necessarily only exist on surfaces, although it can strongly interact with them.
Is there any connection between Holmid's theory and ball lightning phenomena, since (at least to me) both seem counter-intuitive for similar reasons?
The Russian theoreticians who predicted the existence of Rydberg matter in the early 1980s seem to think that RM can explain the phenomenon of ball lightning, but the papers where this is explained are very difficult to come by and are probably available in Russian only.
From http://dx.doi.org/10.1134/1.558225 by Holmlid and Manykin (1997)
The associated references:
- [3] É. A. Manykin, M. I. Ozhovan, and P. P. Poluéktov, Zh. Tekh. Fiz. 52 1474 (1982) [Sov. Phys. Tech. Phys. 27, 905 (1982)].
- [25] É. A. Manykin, M. I. Ozhovan, and P. P. Poluéktov, Proc. 9th Int. Conf. on Atm. Electricity, St. Petersburg; A. I. Voeikov Main Geophysical Observatory, 3, 838 (1992).
Otherwise, bright luminescent "objects" have sometimes been observed in association with the formation of Rydberg matter, which could on this basis speculatively be attibuted to micro-ball lightning. For example in:
https://www.researchgate.net/p…itation_of_Rydberg_matter (abstract only)
https://www.researchgate.net/p…rmionic_energy_converters (pdf available)
Ultra-dense hydrogen is considered by Holmlid et al to be an "extreme" form of Rydberg matter consisting of only Rydberg hydrogen atoms (in principle, any atom or small molecule that can be excited in a Rydberg state can form Rydberg matter, but only that of atomic hydrogen can have an ultra-dense form). In his latest review paper on the subject (open access) where this definition is also established, he briefly describes the observation of a possibly related visual phenomenon to the previously mentioned glowing "objects".
Quote[…] It is then also possible to observe small laser-initiated particles glowing with white light for a few seconds in the deuterium atmosphere. They move with a velocity of a few m s−1 and can collide and bounce from surfaces inside the apparatus while glowing continuously. This can be seen in a small video attached with one frame shown in figure 17. It is likely that these particles consist of D(0) and that the process giving the white light is the condensation of hydrogen RM D(l) onto the particle of D(0), as discussed further below.
Whether this could be indeed viewed as ball lightning, there's no "official" word yet.
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Ultra-dense hydrogen is considered by Holmlid et al to be an "extreme" form of Rydberg matter consisting of only Rydberg hydrogen atoms (in principle, any atom or small molecule that can be excited in a Rydberg state can form Rydberg matter, but only that of atomic hydrogen can have an ultra-dense form). In his latest review paper on the subject (open access) where this definition is also established, he briefly describes the observation of a possibly related visual phenomenon to the previously mentioned glowing "objects".
Yes, Holmlid's view of UDD as a phenomenon related to Rydberg matter is eccentric, to say the least.Normal Rydberg matter is well studied, exists, and is expected. Ball lightning is mysterious just because it is so rare, and therefore difficult to study. Recreation of floating balls of light in the atmosphere is pretty easy - but we don't know which of the various mechanisms is actually responsible for the natural type.
The "dirt-ball" theory has recently gained some very rare experimental support:
https://physics.aps.org/articles/v7/5
Suggesting that UDD is responsible for ball lighting seems to me like a far-reaching type of apophenia, with no scientific basis.
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In the paper Holmlid claims 'The density of H(0) at the quite common spin level s = 2 is of the order of 100 kg cm−3.' Hard to imagine that floating anywhere unless it has anti-gravity properties.
Worth pointing out that this is more than the density of metallic hydrogen, (4gms/CC)and according to a back-of the -envelope calculation I just did with Russ George liquid hydrogen has (for comparison) a density of 0.07 grams/CC.
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What is probably not immediately clear is that "ordinary" Rydberg matter of [atomic] hydrogen and its ultra-dense (or "extreme") form can coexist. With a distance between the atoms of about 150 pm, ordinary RM H has been calculated to have a density of about 0.7 kg/dm3. Source: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ef050172n
Due to its metallic properties and since it's not a gas, this material would be akin to metallic hydrogen as commonly conceived. RM is reported to form a more or less rigid "cloud" in space around the so-called emitter in Holmlid's experiments (i.e. the heated Fe2O3-K catalyst) under a stream of hydrogen gas at a generally low pressure.
The ultra-dense form (>100 Kg/cm3) on the other hand generally makes thin layers on the catalyst from which it can drip rapidly by gravity as a fluid onto surrounding surfaces.
Anyway, Holmlid writes this in his latest review: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1402-4896/ab1276 (open access)
Quote[...] At present there is no strong indication that dense continuous three-dimensional (3D) bodies are formed from H(0), despite the suggestion of such forms in the literature (Winterberg 2010a, 2010b). The attractive internal forces or cohesive forces would have to be very strong to hold such a material together in ordinary gravity, since the density is of the order of 100 kg cm−3. Such cohesive forces are unlikely in the known largest structure of nm sized chain clusters. A cloud of such clusters H2N(0) can be observed by CE processes in a vacuum hanging or slowly falling around an H(0) catalyst source (Andersson et al 2011). Its varying density and cluster composition is then easily studied. Layers of H(0) are also easily observed on surfaces, even on vertical surfaces or on the backside of various objects due to the superfluid properties of H(0) at room temperature (Andersson and Holmlid 2011). However, large bodies of H(0) have not been observed directly.
Continuing then with the excerpt I previously posted:
QuoteOne type of dense matter observation may however be close to continuous H(0). Under the conditions of interest, the vacuum chamber is filled with a visible mist, probably of H(l) RM. Such a mist is formed after an hour or so of direct laser impact on catalyst pieces with the hydrogen gas pressure in the mbar range. This can be seen in figure 16 using D2 gas. Note the visible cloud that scatters the white light generated by the interaction of the IR laser with D(0). It is then also possible to observe small laser-initiated particles glowing with white light for a few seconds in the deuterium atmosphere. They move with a velocity of a few m s−1 and can collide and bounce from surfaces inside the apparatus while glowing continuously. This can be seen in a small video attached with one frame shown in figure 17. It is likely that these particles consist of D(0) and that the process giving the white light is the condensation of hydrogen RM D(l) onto the particle of D(0), as discussed further below.
I didn't intend to turn this into a Holmlid discussion thread though. Perhaps the posts can be moved where appropriate if needed, but this is Lou Pagnucco's thread and he asked above a related question after all, so I guess it's up to him to decide.
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I will move it if Lou so wishes.
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In the paper Holmlid claims 'The density of H(0) at the quite common spin level s = 2 is of the order of 100 kg cm−3.' Hard to imagine that floating anywhere unless it has anti-gravity properties.
As I already told Holmlid - this is a miscalculation. Effectively the density would be 26 times higher...
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Effectively the density would be 26 times higher...
Do you mean it should be 2600 kg cm-3?
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Do you mean it should be 2600 kg cm-3?
Yes: If you correctly use the radius he gives for his UDH...
But of course this radius is not well defined because you cannot use only the Coulomb gauge below Bohr radius. The magnetic energy is already of the same magnitude.
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Wow! That is roughly 2x105 heavier than gold.
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Assuming simple cubic packing, 150 pm – 0.5 kg/cm3 for RM, and 2.3 pm for UDH, then it's (150^3 / 2.3^3) * 0.5 = 138694 g/cm3, or the >130 kg/cm3 first claimed in 2009 in 10.1016/j.ijhydene.2008.10.024 (see abstract). Of course this is only a simple inference from the apparent bond distances.
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Assuming simple cubic packing, 150 pm – 0.5 kg/cm3 for RM, and 2.3 pm for UDH, then it's (150^3 / 2.3^3) * 0.5 = 138694 g/cm3, or the >130 kg/cm3 first claimed in 2009 in
I took the "real" density of liquid hydrogen (r-Bohr =52.4pm --> 105) as an approximation... But any value is just for publicity and has no deeper science background ... A cluster of e.g 17D is not "real" condensed matter it's a particle cluster.
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I think they do acknowledge that (see excerpt attached, from the same 2009 paper cited earlier).
I believe the point is that even though a large volume of continuous material formed of such dense atoms has not been observed yet—as he mentioned in his latest review paper—the density of the clusters is such that nuclear reactions within them can be far more easily induced compared to regular matter. I don't think the provided figure is intended to be a very accurate metric of its true density, and in more recent publications a general order of magnitude like ">100 kg cm-3" seems to be often used, perhaps in an effort to avoid giving this impression.
