MIZUNO REPLICATION AND MATERIALS ONLY

Quote from Curbina

element 115

Oh you know the secret catalyst....

Here is an idea for a heater for the Mizuno replications.

First, there are several reasons to think that the heater function is not just to heat the Nickel mesh.

1. If heat was the only thing required, once excess heat starts, the mesh would be self-heating and the heat should continue indefinitely or even start to run away. This does not seem to happen, and turning off the heater eventually shuts it down. See Fig 28 of the 2017 paper (the 2019 paper does not show data after input power is removed).

2. The mesh should not care if the heat comes from outside or inside, yet the R20 experiment with inside heat has much higher COP than R19 with outside heat.

3. Once the excess heat starts, the excess is much more than the input. (In R20: 50 W input, ~250 W of excess heat, 300 W input, ~2 to 3 kW excess). When large excess is being produced, it should hardly notice that the input heater is turned off.

This leads me to conclude that the function of the heater is more than just to raise the temperature of the mesh.

One possibility is magnetic interaction, but this seems unlikely. The heaters are inside a steel jacket and that should provide some magnetic shielding because it gives a much lower reluctance path for the flux than through the mesh which is farther away. Also, the current and number of turns of the heater coil is low and would generate a very small magnetic field. Also, the R19 experiment should have much better magnetic coupling than R20, yet its COP is worse.

That leaves the main possibility for the heater function to be infrared radiation. This makes sense because

1. Low pressure D (100-300 Pa) causes more of the input power to be from radiation than conduction or convection. The excess power stops at higher D pressure.

2. The low pressure (medium vacuum) inside the chamber effectively provides insulation and makes the temperature of the heater element (now like a bulb filament) to be higher than the mesh. The higher temperature increases the frequency of its black body IR radiation. This could explain why the lower temperature mesh cannot self-activate – its IR is at a much longer wavelength than the heater filament.

This leaves me to conclude that a better heater would be one with higher frequency (shorter wavelength) IR radiation. A halogen bulb would do just that, and low cost halogen bulbs are available in a form factor similar to the space in the Mizono-type experiments. They come in a “T3” style in 100W, 250W, 500W and 1000W versions. The 1000W is .44 inch dia x 10.06 inch long. Here is one source, but you can get them through Amazon or hardware stores also:

https://www.bulbs.com/product/Q1000T3-CL-120V

This bulb could be driven from 0-130V AC or DC , 0-1 KW. A variable DC supply would work up to a couple hundred watts, but something like a Variac might work better for higher power.

The halogen bulb is equivalent to a black body radiator at much higher temperature than the heaters used by Mizuno. Halogen bulbs have peak radiation around 1 um which is equivalent to around 3000 K. See these links:

https://www.heliosquartz.com/p…infrared-heaters/?lang=en

http://www.sun.org/encyclopedia/black-body-radiation

Reactors could be made to accept either a sheath/cartridge heater or halogen bulb. First do a true replication with the heater, then try the halogen bulb. If this analysis is right, it could greatly increase the COP.

Note that the halogen bulb has its own vacuum chamber. This might allow the reactor to operate at much higher pressure.

Robert Horst i'm probably one of first who talked here about IRs ..

However i don't well understand what you said below:

The higher temperature increases the frequency of its black body IR radiation. This could explain why the lower temperature mesh cannot self-activate – its IR is at a much longer wavelength than the heater filament.

therefore is there really coherent with what you suggested here ? i suggest rather the reverse ?

This leaves me to conclude that a better heater would be one with higher frequency ??? (shorter wavelength ???) IR radiation.

Really ?

Quote from Robert Horst

Here is an idea for a heater for the Mizuno replications.

First, there are several reasons to think that the heater function is not just to heat the Nickel mesh.

1. If heat was the only thing required, once excess heat starts, the mesh would be self-heating and the heat should continue indefinitely or even start to run away. This does not seem to happen, and turning off the heater eventually shuts it down. See Fig 28 of the 2017 paper (the 2019 paper does not show data after input power is removed).

2. The mesh should not care if the heat comes from outside or inside, yet the R20 experiment with inside heat has much higher COP than R19 with outside heat.

3. Once the excess heat starts, the excess is much more than the input. (In R20: 50 W input, ~250 W of excess heat, 300 W input, ~2 to 3 kW excess). When large excess is being produced, it should hardly notice that the input heater is turned off.

This leads me to conclude that the function of the heater is more than just to raise the temperature of the mesh.

One possibility is magnetic interaction, but this seems unlikely. The heaters are inside a steel jacket and that should provide some magnetic shielding because it gives a much lower reluctance path for the flux than through the mesh which is farther away. Also, the current and number of turns of the heater coil is low and would generate a very small magnetic field. Also, the R19 experiment should have much better magnetic coupling than R20, yet its COP is worse.

That leaves the main possibility for the heater function to be infrared radiation. This makes sense because

1. Low pressure D (100-300 Pa) causes more of the input power to be from radiation than conduction or convection. The excess power stops at higher D pressure.

2. The low pressure (medium vacuum) inside the chamber effectively provides insulation and makes the temperature of the heater element (now like a bulb filament) to be higher than the mesh. The higher temperature increases the frequency of its black body IR radiation. This could explain why the lower temperature mesh cannot self-activate – its IR is at a much longer wavelength than the heater filament.

This leaves me to conclude that a better heater would be one with higher frequency (shorter wavelength) IR radiation. A halogen bulb would do just that, and low cost halogen bulbs are available in a form factor similar to the space in the Mizono-type experiments. They come in a “T3” style in 100W, 250W, 500W and 1000W versions. The 1000W is .44 inch dia x 10.06 inch long. Here is one source, but you can get them through Amazon or hardware stores also:

https://www.bulbs.com/product/Q1000T3-CL-120V

This bulb could be driven from 0-130V AC or DC , 0-1 KW. A variable DC supply would work up to a couple hundred watts, but something like a Variac might work better for higher power.

The halogen bulb is equivalent to a black body radiator at much higher temperature than the heaters used by Mizuno. Halogen bulbs have peak radiation around 1 um which is equivalent to around 3000 K. See these links:

https://www.heliosquartz.com/p…infrared-heaters/?lang=en

http://www.sun.org/encyclopedia/black-body-radiation

Reactors could be made to accept either a sheath/cartridge heater or halogen bulb. First do a true replication with the heater, then try the halogen bulb. If this analysis is right, it could greatly increase the COP.

Note that the halogen bulb has its own vacuum chamber. This might allow the reactor to operate at much higher pressure.

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Do we know the mesh is at a lower temperature than the heater? Is emitting up to nine times the power of the heater. How does the power density compare?

  CWatters

Do we know the mesh is at a lower temperature than the heater?

yes because temperature will attenuate from reactor's center to the border ( Ni mesh area)

So @Robert Horst suggests to more increase this temperature gradient by an heater which emits at higher temperature.

if it's right, lowering reactor's diameter should do almost the same.

the main advantage of R20 reactor remains its simplicity, so will be easy to try quickly a lot of different things

One run we should try Robert's postulate , next one we should try the reverse then we should know

However essential things doesn't seem there but rather in the good agreement of electrons vibrations frequencies induced precisely by these IR , then this... at protons storage area ( Pd/Ni interface).

Quote from CWatters

Do we know the mesh is at a lower temperature than the heater? Is emitting up to nine times the power of the heater. How does the power density compare?

Quote from Robert Horst

Here is an idea for a heater for the Mizuno replications.

First, there are several reasons to think that the heater function is not just to heat the Nickel mesh.

1. If heat was the only thing required, once excess heat starts, the mesh would be self-heating and the heat should continue indefinitely or even start to run away. This does not seem to happen, and turning off the heater eventually shuts it down. See Fig 28 of the 2017 paper (the 2019 paper does not show data after input power is removed).

2. The mesh should not care if the heat comes from outside or inside, yet the R20 experiment with inside heat has much higher COP than R19 with outside heat.

3. Once the excess heat starts, the excess is much more than the input. (In R20: 50 W input, ~250 W of excess heat, 300 W input, ~2 to 3 kW excess). When large excess is being produced, it should hardly notice that the input heater is turned off.

This leads me to conclude that the function of the heater is more than just to raise the temperature of the mesh.

One possibility is magnetic interaction, but this seems unlikely. The heaters are inside a steel jacket and that should provide some magnetic shielding because it gives a much lower reluctance path for the flux than through the mesh which is farther away. Also, the current and number of turns of the heater coil is low and would generate a very small magnetic field. Also, the R19 experiment should have much better magnetic coupling than R20, yet its COP is worse.

That leaves the main possibility for the heater function to be infrared radiation. This makes sense because

1. Low pressure D (100-300 Pa) causes more of the input power to be from radiation than conduction or convection. The excess power stops at higher D pressure.

2. The low pressure (medium vacuum) inside the chamber effectively provides insulation and makes the temperature of the heater element (now like a bulb filament) to be higher than the mesh. The higher temperature increases the frequency of its black body IR radiation. This could explain why the lower temperature mesh cannot self-activate – its IR is at a much longer wavelength than the heater filament.

This leaves me to conclude that a better heater would be one with higher frequency (shorter wavelength) IR radiation. A halogen bulb would do just that, and low cost halogen bulbs are available in a form factor similar to the space in the Mizono-type experiments. They come in a “T3” style in 100W, 250W, 500W and 1000W versions. The 1000W is .44 inch dia x 10.06 inch long. Here is one source, but you can get them through Amazon or hardware stores also:

https://www.bulbs.com/product/Q1000T3-CL-120V

This bulb could be driven from 0-130V AC or DC , 0-1 KW. A variable DC supply would work up to a couple hundred watts, but something like a Variac might work better for higher power.

The halogen bulb is equivalent to a black body radiator at much higher temperature than the heaters used by Mizuno. Halogen bulbs have peak radiation around 1 um which is equivalent to around 3000 K. See these links:

https://www.heliosquartz.com/p…infrared-heaters/?lang=en

http://www.sun.org/encyclopedia/black-body-radiation

Reactors could be made to accept either a sheath/cartridge heater or halogen bulb. First do a true replication with the heater, then try the halogen bulb. If this analysis is right, it could greatly increase the COP.

Note that the halogen bulb has its own vacuum chamber. This might allow the reactor to operate at much higher pressure.

Display More

Halogen bulbs like this are quite sensitive to cooling. They require good cooling at the rated power output, or they will burst. I used this type of bulb to simulate reactions a few times, and all of them exploded violently and fairly quickly after being turned up to full power, while inside a ceramic tube. I would have to check my notes, but it seems to me that at about 600 C glass (quartz) surface temperature is when they failed. They can get that hot in seconds if enclosed.

I would test the bulbs outside the reactor but in a similar sized enclosure to make sure they will stand up in the inside of the reactor vessel at the power levels desired. I am sure it can be done, but best to make sure before committing it to a clean reactor.

Quote from Robert Horst

Here is an idea for a heater for the Mizuno replications.

First, there are several reasons to think that the heater function is not just to heat the Nickel mesh.

1. If heat was the only thing required, once excess heat starts, the mesh would be self-heating and the heat should continue indefinitely or even start to run away. This does not seem to happen, and turning off the heater eventually shuts it down. See Fig 28 of the 2017 paper (the 2019 paper does not show data after input power is removed).

2. The mesh should not care if the heat comes from outside or inside, yet the R20 experiment with inside heat has much higher COP than R19 with outside heat.

3. Once the excess heat starts, the excess is much more than the input. (In R20: 50 W input, ~250 W of excess heat, 300 W input, ~2 to 3 kW excess). When large excess is being produced, it should hardly notice that the input heater is turned off.

This leads me to conclude that the function of the heater is more than just to raise the temperature of the mesh.

One possibility is magnetic interaction, but this seems unlikely. The heaters are inside a steel jacket and that should provide some magnetic shielding because it gives a much lower reluctance path for the flux than through the mesh which is farther away. Also, the current and number of turns of the heater coil is low and would generate a very small magnetic field. Also, the R19 experiment should have much better magnetic coupling than R20, yet its COP is worse.

That leaves the main possibility for the heater function to be infrared radiation. This makes sense because

1. Low pressure D (100-300 Pa) causes more of the input power to be from radiation than conduction or convection. The excess power stops at higher D pressure.

2. The low pressure (medium vacuum) inside the chamber effectively provides insulation and makes the temperature of the heater element (now like a bulb filament) to be higher than the mesh. The higher temperature increases the frequency of its black body IR radiation. This could explain why the lower temperature mesh cannot self-activate – its IR is at a much longer wavelength than the heater filament.

This leaves me to conclude that a better heater would be one with higher frequency (shorter wavelength) IR radiation. A halogen bulb would do just that, and low cost halogen bulbs are available in a form factor similar to the space in the Mizono-type experiments. They come in a “T3” style in 100W, 250W, 500W and 1000W versions. The 1000W is .44 inch dia x 10.06 inch long. Here is one source, but you can get them through Amazon or hardware stores also:

https://www.bulbs.com/product/Q1000T3-CL-120V

This bulb could be driven from 0-130V AC or DC , 0-1 KW. A variable DC supply would work up to a couple hundred watts, but something like a Variac might work better for higher power.

The halogen bulb is equivalent to a black body radiator at much higher temperature than the heaters used by Mizuno. Halogen bulbs have peak radiation around 1 um which is equivalent to around 3000 K. See these links:

https://www.heliosquartz.com/p…infrared-heaters/?lang=en

http://www.sun.org/encyclopedia/black-body-radiation

Reactors could be made to accept either a sheath/cartridge heater or halogen bulb. First do a true replication with the heater, then try the halogen bulb. If this analysis is right, it could greatly increase the COP.

Note that the halogen bulb has its own vacuum chamber. This might allow the reactor to operate at much higher pressure.

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Robert I agree with much of this (under the assumption that the R19 / R20 results indicate real excess heat):

• Some stimulation from the heater independent of temperature is needed to prevent hysteresis (not observed)
• IR is the most plausible such stimulation

You cannot rule out some interaction between the heater and the rarified D2 (creating ions etc). But IR looks plausible.

You could test the IR theory pretty easily by comparing two different internal heaters in one reactor: one as per Mizuno, one in good thermal contact with the reactor inner surface.

Quote from CWatters

Do we know the mesh is at a lower temperature than the heater? Is emitting up to nine times the power of the heater. How does the power density compare?

The mesh surface area is very large compared with the heater - therefore it will get much much less hot than the heater for even 9 times emitted power.

The heater is specified at around 3W/cm^2 (if I remember right, worth checking). The mesh (250W excess output R20) is 3600 cm^2 => 0.07W/cm^2. (NB, 3 meshes, 2 sided, each mesh 20cm X 30cm)

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Halogen bulbs like this are quite sensitive to cooling. They require good cooling at the rated power output, or they will burst. ...

I would test the bulbs outside the reactor but in a similar sized enclosure to make sure they will stand up in the inside of the reactor vessel at the power levels desired. I am sure it can be done, but best to make sure before committing it to a clean reactor.

Excellent suggestion.

If this shows that you cannot run it at high enough power, you could use the metal pipe of the reactor as one of the electrodes (neutral if AC or negative/GND if DC). Then the bulb could be clamped or solidly attached to the cooler end of the metal pipe which would act as a heatsink for the bulb. If AC powered, you would have to be careful to have it wired correctly to avoid a shock hazard. Best to use a GFI outlet just in case.

Quote from Alan Smith

I that 'per sheet' or for a set of 3?

$400 for a set of 3.

Quote from Robert Horst

Excellent suggestion.

If this shows that you cannot run it at high enough power, you could use the metal pipe of the reactor as one of the electrodes (neutral if AC or negative/GND if DC). Then the bulb could be clamped or solidly attached to the cooler end of the metal pipe which would act as a heatsink for the bulb. If AC powered, you would have to be careful to have it wired correctly to avoid a shock hazard. Best to use a GFI outlet just in case.

One could wind up a custom heater coil with whatever feasible characteristics as desired.

Some toaster ovens use 2 high and 2 low resistance heater “bulbs” (really mostly long Inconel coils loose inside a thin ceramic or quartz tube) in series, parallel, and rectified in different combinations to achieve different settings.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

One could wind up a custom heater coil with whatever feasible characteristics as desired

It's probably not a good idea to put a bare heater wire in the cell, despite the possible increase in available IR emission. At low vacuum and high heat there will be metal ions from the wire spreading around in the cell. The heater used by Mizuno is sheathed in stainless steel and was likely chosen for that reason as well as others. The sheath is also electrically isolated from the heating power, an important detail in my experience.

I've proposed a stainless steel thermo-well with cartridge heater(s) inserted in it as a low-cost alternative. For those interested, suitable tubes are available for around $12 from brewershardware.com

AlanG

From Letts and Cravens laser beat frequency work, they saw high COP at 8.3 THz, 15.3 THz, and 20.4 THz.

Excerpting from a Letts/Cravens/Hagelstein paper: "Low-level thermal signals are observed to be triggered at apparent resonances when the difference frequency is 8.3, 15.3 and 20.4 THz. There seems to be a reasonable connection between beat frequencies of 8.3 and 15.3 THz and characteristic frequencies of the optical phonon spectrum in PdD, but the optical phonon spectrum in PdD does not go up to 20.4 THz. However, 20.4 THz is close to a characteristic frequency of PdH, and we believe that our experiments so far have had significant proton contamination."

The 8.3 THz and 15.3Hz pure deuterium frequencies correspond to vacuum wavelengths of 36 microns and 19.6 microns respectively.

The mesh has 55 micron diameter. I can imagine a surface plasmon resonance effect if the driving photons were coherent, but for a blackbody radiation it is not coherent. Maybe quantum effects allow random heat photons to result in resonance because out-of-phase incoming photons won't be able to disturb (couple to) plasmon oscillations that are already underway? I have no idea...

Smaller mesh sizes could be worth trying, after doing the 55 micron mesh. I emailed one vendor and got no response.

If smaller resonant cavities in the roughened surface matter, those are of course smaller than 55 micron.

NASA/Joe Zawodny did this type of O(10 THz) surface plasmon resonance work on micro-patterened surfaces but they went dark, not sure if it failed or not. They may have made too many experimental choices specific to Widom-Larsen theory, maybe that caused it to fail, or it just didn't work.

There are papers about 3D printing of micron scale THz radiation generators these days...

All of this will be tested quickly if Mizuno's work goes viral following ICCF.

Quote from magicsound

It's probably not a good idea to put a bare heater wire in the cell, despite the possible increase in available IR emission. At low vacuum and high heat there will be metal ions from the wire spreading around in the cell. The heater used by Mizuno is sheathed in stainless steel and was likely chosen for that reason as well as others. The sheath is also electrically isolated from the heating power, an important detail in my experience.

I've proposed a stainless steel thermo-well with cartridge heater(s) inserted in it as a low-cost alternative. For those interested, suitable tubes are available for around $12 from brewershardware.com

AlanG

I wasn’t aware that the stainless sheath was verified, but I just verified it myself to be SUS 316.

Have the anemometer traverses been done at the various calibration levels’ output temperatures?

To all,

Thanks for your inputs and suggestions.

I found a vendor, Isowater, that sells D₂O for $779 per kg. They state that the D₂O is refined, so hopefully that means it is also de-ionized. Most hydrogen generators require DI water to work properly. I once contacted United Nuclear to ask whether their D₂O is de-ionised but never got a reply.100 gms of D₂O may not be enough to sufficiently fill the reservoir in the hydrogen generator. However if 500g is sufficient I would be willing to sell the unused D₂O to help defray costs.

If there is one set of three Ni mesh I would be interested in purchasing a set for $400.00, I believe. If none are available, please put me down on a to-buy list. BTW, the volume of my replication setup is much smaller than that used by Mizuno, so excess power (if any) will be commensurately less.

Several people have stated concerns about placing a thermocouple inside the chamber. I plan on avoiding this problem by using a fused quartz outer tube and an IR thermometer to monitor directly the temperature of the Ni mesh. An inconel sheathed cartridge heater (available from Omega ) will be placed inside the rolled mesh and will be separated from the mesh inside an alumina tube. In previous experiments I did use an internal and exposed heater element (Kanthal) and encountered no outgassing problems. Those experiments were run at 800-1200C, so at the much lower temperatures used in Mizuno replications, an exposed heater element may not cause problems with outgassing or metal vapor pressure.

Jeff

Re halogen heater etc.

Given that Mizuno's SU316 sheath heater (specified at 925C maximum operating temp - though I don't have a spec for the resistive element inside the sheath) generates these spectacular results, I can see no point in varying parameters trying for some other IR source until this is confirmed.

If, in fact, some LENR reaction is triggered by IR than all sorts of optimisation will be possible, fairly easily I'd think. But optimisation does not help you until you have something that definitely works.

The IR hypothesis can be confirmed or refuted, while keeping 100% Mizuno compatibility, as follows:

• Use two sheath heating elements.
• Compare results driving both equally with given power, or driving just one with the same total power. That will give identical characteristics in every way except the surface temperature of the sheath which will alter the radiative spectrum.
• Work that provides definite answers to hypotheses (like that) is always valuable. Although the confirmation is not definite: it could be some other temperature-dependent interaction between the sheath and the D2 that matters, rather than IR.

THH

@TTHuxleynew

you said:

Given that Mizuno's SU316 sheath heater generates these spectacular results,

How you have reached this conclusion ? what is your reasoning ?

Quote from Cydonia

@TTHuxleynew

you said:

Given that Mizuno's SU316 sheath heater generates these spectacular results,

How you have reached this conclusion ? what is your reasoning ?

Cydonia: I have reached no such conclusion. The R20 results are spectacular, but I'm making the whole of my statement conditional on them being real.

There is a lot of uncertainty here: but also a lot of interesting analysis. For this to work, the things one says need to be made conditional.

Mizuno said (post from Jed) that he uses a sheath heater with an SU316 steel capillary sheath.