MIZUNO REPLICATION AND MATERIALS ONLY

Quote from Curbina

I know this will sound like a blinding flash of the obvious but couldn’t McKubre move some influences at SRI to do the much needed in depth analysis of that unique palladium rubbed mesh?

I wouldn't know. He is aware we are looking around for an analysis, but hasn't said anything to me.

There are some promising candidate organizations that might investigate the mesh. I was kidding when I said "probably nonexistent." On the other hand, it often happens that people offer to do something but when you get to them and say: "Okay, how about it? Are you ready?" they never respond.

I think it would be a good idea to send samples to more than one organization.

Quote from JedRothwell

Unfortunately, that will be delayed. It turns out the mesh is still in the R20 cell, and the cell has broken and cannot be opened. It will cost $1,500 to open it and repair it without damaging the mesh. It may be a while before we come up with the money.

I reported earlier that the mesh was already replaced. That was a mistake. (Mizuno's mistake, not mine, for once.) He labeled a graph "R20 new mesh." He meant the latest cell, R21. R21 is very similar to R20.

It may also be delayed because we are looking for: A top notch lab, that will do a detailed analysis, with state of the art instruments, for free. That's a rare combination of attributes. Probably nonexistent. Seven_of_twenty has assured me that top-notch labs will line up to evaluate something like this. I wish he would produce a few of them.

Gradually, I become more and more convinced that we are led by the nose

Quote from JedRothwell

It turns out the mesh is still in the R20 cell, and the cell has broken and cannot be opened. It will cost $1,500 to open it and repair it without damaging the mesh.

Jed, I know from what you have said that TM doesn't do any of his own engineering, he just buys it in from specialists. Knowing how simple the reactor is, I fear he is having the Mickey taken. Me and my boys are pretty adept at engineering matters, if you would care to elucidate on the exact nature of how it is broken in a way that it is stuck together, such that it will take major work to get apart and repair, I would be glad, as I am sure would others, to offer advice on how this could be done much less expensively.

"the cell has broken and cannot be opened"

Stainless steel hardware is notorious for galling and binding up such that fasteners cannot be removed, is that what happened?

During assembly, a bit of zinc dust in petrolatum works wonders for later disassembly.

Yes, it is the likliest cause. Copper grease is another way to avoid it. Reason for not doing either may be fear of contamination. That type of stuff does have a habit of getting around. Still, this is more usual after high temperatures. The only other possibility is a flange weld, but as copper to stainless, especially 316, takes careful planning and execution to achieve, that is not going to have happened, I think.

Still, even if the bolts have galled at both ends, and every single one, it still isn't $1500 worth, or anything like it. The bolts on R20 are nuts and bolts rather than bolts in tapped holes, so there is no flange damage. So drill them out and replace. Drill press, coolant, good drills and a bit of patience-not $1500.

Quote from Alan Smith

Nut splitters:--

Have you got a gangster background- that's one worse that knuckle dusters.

Cringing and going knock-kneed.

I don't think I would ever have the balls (punn intended) to use anything with a name like that.

Bronze nuts is a good idea though, ( no punn intended). I did that once on a 3kL stainless acid copper dissolving drum. They worked very well. Then I discovered that some numb-nuts had run low on stainless rods to weld the end plates on, and made the numbers up with a few mild steel ones. A few days good running and then leak city. Eee.....them wer't good old days.

Quote from JDM

Stainless steel hardware is notorious for galling and binding up such that fasteners cannot be removed, is that what happened?

I don't know. He just said it is going to cost $1,500. I think we will scout around for a lab or labs that agree to analyze it before he has it opened. I have contacted some places.

Quote from JDM

"the cell has broken and cannot be opened"

Stainless steel hardware is notorious for galling and binding up such that fasteners cannot be removed, is that what happened?

During assembly, a bit of zinc dust in petrolatum works wonders for later disassembly.

yes, that is why most "professional" conflate systems normally use the silver plated bolts.

for example: https://www.idealvac.com/Bolt-…t-Hole-Flanges/pp/P104381

I would say, however, that I have also use Ti bolts.

I'll bet bronze is cheaper than Ti.

Jed: do we know why it is broken? Could it be mended? It seems a pity given its independent testing as per the initial results would be a world-changing event, and clearly could be organised.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Jed: do we know why it is broken? Could it be mended?

I do not know what is broken. It can be mended for $1,500.

Quote from THHuxleynew

It seems a pity given its independent testing as per the initial results would be a world-changing event, and clearly could be organised.

If you can organize it, please go ahead and do that. We'll come up with the $1,500 somehow. At present we are holding off because the people who said they would analyze the mesh did not respond when I asked them if they would share the results publicly and do it for free. I do not think they had that in mind. Venture capitalists and the like will not support such efforts.

This will probably happen sooner or later. Given the pace at which Mizuno is forced to work, and the lack of money, it might take a year or so. As I said, this effort would be enhanced with a suitcase full of money. We could always pay a laboratory to do an analysis. At the moment, my highest priority is preparing for ICCF22. I do not know what Mizuno's own highest priority is. We don't communicate that often. I hope he is making more meshes with Pd burnished on to them. Many more people asked for them than he can make. I think he can make one or two sets a month.

This talk about a "world changing event" leaves me cold. All cold fusion research is potentially world changing. You never know which experiment might be a breakthrough until you do the experiment. Sometimes it is not clear for months or years later that it was important, or that it was actually a bust. Granted, this particular experiment does look promising. That's what we said in the paper. But without all the ones leading up to it, it would not have happened. Those so-so 12 W reactions last year were as much "world changing events" as this one is, because this wouldn't have happened without them. So I think it is a mistake to label some research world changing while you ignore the rest. Even ignoring previous work by the same author.

The other thing that leaves me cold is this notion that it is important so of course laboratories will flock to test it. See Seven_of_twenty, for example. I don't see anyone flocking to do anything. As I said, when I asked these labs "will you analyze the super-productive mesh if I upload your results to LENR-CANR.org?" the line went dead. They want information from me, but they don't want to give any information back. I assure you, no one has flocked to reimburse me for the $4,500 I paid for the meshes Mizuno is making. Even the people who took them so far. No one will pay the $1,500 to get this damned cell open, no matter how important they say it is. Seven_of_twenty imagines that money falls out of sky for promising research. He thinks we could show a 3 kW reaction and people would start writing checks. That's not how it works. Granted, some people have paid Mizuno from time to time, but nowhere near enough to do the research on the scale it deserves, with the equipment he needs. It is mostly funded by him.

(Perhaps he makes unreasonable demands on people who want to fund him. I wouldn't know. I have no idea what arrangements he has made. But it seems to me there should be a way to open the broken cell, fix the SEM, and get someone other than me to pay for stuff like this. I have no IP or any business relationship with Mizuno or anyone else in this field.)

Quote from JedRothwell

I do not know what is broken. It can be mended for $1,500.

If you can organize it, please go ahead and do that. We'll come up with the $1,500 somehow. At present we are holding off because the people who said they would analyze the mesh did not respond when I asked them if they would share the results publicly and do it for free. I do not think they had that in mind. Venture capitalists and the like will not support such efforts.

This will probably happen sooner or later. Given the pace at which Mizuno is forced to work, and the lack of money, it might take a year or so. As I said, this effort would be enhanced with a suitcase full of money. We could always pay a laboratory to do an analysis. At the moment, my highest priority is preparing for ICCF22. I do not know what Mizuno's own highest priority is. We don't communicate that often. I hope he is making more meshes with Pd burnished on to them. Many more people asked for them than he can make. I think he can make one or two sets a month.

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The google guys have people and money. Just an independent test of this, if it was working, would be poss and quick?

Quote from THHuxleynew

The google guys have people and money. Just an independent test of this, if it was working, would be poss and quick?

They sure do have money! I imagine they could easily pay the $1,500 to unstick the reactor. I suppose if we sent them a set of prepared meshes, they might even pay the $400 it cost me. Mizuno might be able to do that sometime in the next few months.

Is it possible? I have no idea. Ask them. Is it quick? Again, that is entirely up to them.

They are probably aware of our situation. Everyone is. Mizuno and I do not hold back information. My address, e-mail, and telephone numbers is on every page at LENR-CANR.org. Thousands of people have downloaded the recipe. When people have asked questions, we have done our best to answer them. Although I have been mostly off line lately, preparing for ICCF22. I suppose the people at Google know who we are and where to reach us. I have no idea where to reach them. If they contact me and ask for a sample of the super-productive mesh, I will certainly tell them, "Sure, if you wire transfer $1,500 to fix the cell and agree to let us publish your result." I doubt I would ever hear from them again. I don't see any point to mailing the materials off to someone who will keep the result secret. We might as well leave the mesh locked in the cell for all the good that would do us.

As I said, venture capitalists and the like tend to be a black hole for information. They want me to tell them everything I know, and send a nice sample of a mesh which they can analyze with the best instruments money can buy. However, they would prefer not to give us back those results, and they don't want us to upload them. That's been my experience with such people. Maybe the people at Google are different.

It often does not work out well for them. For the venture capitalist research groups, I mean. They don't tell people what they are up to, so they often make mistakes or go off on a tangent into an unproductive project. Since no one knows what they are doing, and there are no outside reviews or discussions with experts, there is no self-corrective mechanism. That's what happened with the NHE project, which costs tens of millions of dollars, but accomplished little. I have no idea what is happening at Texas Tech, but I fear something like that may be underway. I have only a hazy idea what the Google gang did, because the Nature paper was uninformative. They might also be off on a tangent. I cannot tell, but that often happens in secret projects, and semi-secret ones. That's no way to do fundamental scientific research.

Quote from JedRothwell

They are probably aware of our situation. Everyone is. Mizuno and I do not hold back information.

We are not holding back this information. If anyone from Google is at ICCF22, and they manage to get back from lunch on Monday in time to hear my presentation, they will hear me say:

"We have done [various things] to assist replications. We distributed as-received meshes, and Mizuno is now burnishing meshes with palladium and distributing them. People have not yet had a chance to use them. Here is a promising next step. Mizuno is planning to remove the super-productive mesh from the R20 that produced 250 W excess. We are hoping to find a top notch laboratory with advanced diagnostic instruments to analyze it. We are hoping they will do that for free.

That was the plan . . . until last week. Things are on hold. Mizuno discovered the top is stuck on the reactor, damaged, and it will cost $1,500 to open it up."

Why not send the seized up R20 to another research group who could run a quick replication before opening it - wouldn't another Japanese University be able to help, maybe Iwamura or Takahashi?

Quote from Dr Richard

Why not send the seized up R20 to another research group who could run a quick replication before opening it

I have no say in this matter. But I think it would be a bad idea to ship any of these reactors with prepared meshes in them. I think it may be possible for the meshes to self heat. If this reactor was placed in a box and put in a truck or airplane freight hold, and it began to self heat, the results might be catastrophic. Until much more is known about these things, I think they should be kept in laboratories, surrounded by instruments and radiation detectors, and treated with caution at all times.

Quote from Dr Richard

wouldn't another Japanese University be able to help, maybe Iwamura or Takahashi?

Not a chance! From what I have heard and seen over the years, they are not happy about this.

Some Japanese corporations might help, but I believe they have the same "black hole" approach the venture capitalists seem to have. Similar to arrangement Martin Fleischmann struggled with at Toyota. "You tell us everything you know. In return, we will tell you nothing." Such a deal! Who wouldn't be happy to hand over a trillion dollars in IP for nothing?

Quote from Curbina

I think Dr. Mizuno is dealing with a high standard metalworks shop so they have high rates. Perhaps is not easy for him to find a more economic shop to get the nuts drilled, if that is the problem really. Is hard to imagine what else could be the problem to open it.

As people have stated previously, stainless steel galls easily; it also has a tendency to work harden, making drilling difficult. Some vacuum hardware utilizes silver coated threads to avoid this problem. For example, the threads on VCR fittings are typically plated with silver. I don't know what machining facilities Mizuno has, but if he can get hold of a vertical mill and carbide tooling it should be possible to either drill or mill off the damaged hardware (assuming it is nuts/bolts). I have some experience machining stainless, and the combination of rigid a setup, carbide tooling, and appropriate coolant works well.

Jeff

Quote from jeff

I don't know what machining facilities Mizuno has, but if he can get hold of a vertical mill and carbide tooling it should be possible to either drill or mill off the damaged hardware (assuming it is nuts/bolts).

He has nothing like that. He relies on a local supplier for the reactors. I don't know what the problem is. I hope he can fix it, soon, because I think we may have lined up an excellent lab to do the analysis.