• Is the plan to use your analyzed meshes in an actual replication of Mizuno R20 test? As a side comment, it's a bit strange to me that Mizuno/Rothwell strongly recommend accurate analytical procedure for gas evacuation and don't similarly suggest rigorous analysis of the prepared meshes as well (at least it's not part of the original paper).

    It is not strange because they know proper degassing Is more important for obtaining excess heat. The level of excess heat has been variable but getting it depends strongly on the proper degassing protocol. I think this is not stated very specifically in the R20 paper but in the previous paper which is a must read it is more detailed. The importance of degassing for a long period is also stated by Parkhomov who did that in his latest Nickel excess heat paper (the one presented by Bob Greenyer at ICCF 22). Bob also says that Piantelli insists that step is key for success, and Bob also has found some back up to this in the work of Thomas Graham in the first half of the XIX century.

    This is Graham’s paper that is surprisingly familiar considering is more that 100 years old.


    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • it's a bit strange to me that Mizuno/Rothwell strongly recommend accurate analytical procedure for gas evacuation and don't similarly suggest rigorous analysis of the prepared meshes as well (at least it's not part of the original paper).

    We do recommend that, but we have not been able to do it, because Mizuno's instruments are broken from the earthquake. As I said in the ICCF22 presentation, we have arranged to have a big lab do a complete analysis of some meshes. I hope that gets underway soon.


  • I hope a few experts were inspired enough to give this a try.

    Yes, a few have been inspired already. A few is all we want. Especially, many non-experts will probably do more harm than good. I do not like to discourage enthusiastic people. But, I do not think it is likely they will succeed. I don't like to see them waste their money and their time, and I do not want them to report that the experiment does not work.

  • Speaking of replications, where are all the reports? We had quite a few heading to the lab in the beginning, with some regularly posting their preparations. Since then, with the exception of Magic, it has gone quiet. Have you started yet, and if not why? Are you close to finished? Discontinued and why? Done, but got a null/negative, and if so...reason you think it did not work? Successful, but now seeking investors and have to protect IP :) ?

    Come on guys...get it out. That is what we are here for.

  • Careful replications take time..

    Zhang is still adjusting

    October, November ..December?,, from my armchair

    I know, but when this first started there was an infectious excitement, and spirit of cooperation among those about to start, and those thinking about it. Now all is quiet...what happened? Maybe the Deneum null result knocked the wind out of their sails, or the ICCF and Team Google threads distracted them to silence...I am not sure.

    If replications are underway, the chances of success are much better communicating with each other *every* step of the way. That is why LF is here; to provide instant, 24/7/365 access between like-minded people, so they can do it better, and solve things faster. Same reason Alan started the NSRG of theoreticians...to get them together to talk, talk, and then talk some more. That is the best way to get to the bottom of this. It won't happen if everyone retreats into their comfort zone of silence.

  • Same reason Alan started the NSRG of theoreticians

    like-minded is good for experimentalists too ..

    You are doing well to keep this thread clear like.

    In all non-LENR fields they don't make headlines because the anomalous results are taken as sign of error, and the error is discovered.

    Such generalisations are foolish and off-topic.

    In geology for example. anomalies are quite common and many are not a sign of error but of new discovery.

    "There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement.

    If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery. Enrico Fermi

    Errors of technique can obscure real effects... and have done so in many botched replications

    The importance of careful replications to reduce errors cannot be underestimated.

    Take your time replicators..

  • Just a naive question by someone that will normally never be competent.

    How do you learn the experimental methods around those experiments, like managing sealing, pressure, swagelocks, choosing pumps, mass spectrometer, radiations detectors, managing electronic noises, ground wiring, thermocouples, recorders, the mathematic of calorimetry, ambiance temperature, water baths, turbulence...

    Is it years of work in lab with professors or old engineers ? can you learn enough by exchange with goodwilling LENR peers , locally, remotely ?
    Do you need rather to contact local experts around ? to subcontract some task ?

    To contact friendly experts in other domain (biology? Chemistry? car engineering? ...)?

    As I understand, even assuming Mizuno R20 can be replicated by careful replication because all have been written, it is not easy, and one need big experience in lab, expensive apparatus, or to acquires that experience by numerous failures and expert feedback.

    By the way, good luck.

  • There is reason to believe that one lab has made 3 attempts at replication with no success. As Alainco and Robert suggest, this isn't easy.

    As for the process knowledge needed to carry our complex equipment builds and perform experiments, that is learnt like any other skill, cookery, painting, hairdressing all involve specialist knowledge and the development of particular skills. Some things you learn by making mistakes, some by getting it right. It requires a mix of brains and dexterity and a lot of practice.

  • I'm just a retired electronics engineer. To me the difficult things requiring "experience" appear to be those related to creating the vacuum/cleanliness/mass spectrometry. I think the rest should be within the capabilities of any good engineer.

    Of course this is in addition to the currently unknown issues that may stop the thing working even if you manage to do everything "right".

  • It's perplexing that a lab would make 3 attempts without (I assume) contacting the one co-author who is pretty much available here 24/7 to check if they forgot anything important.

    If you mean me, I have heard from various people. Other than Zhang, they did not give me anything else to publish yet. I never discuss research without permission, and without some sort of document or message from the authors. If they get positive results I assume they will announce them after careful checking. We have been doing a lot to help, on the condition that they publish when they finish. If they decide to keep their results secret, I will be upset! But there is no rush.

    I did note here during the conference that a couple of people trying to replicate told me they looked that the mesh with a SEM and found little or no Pd on it. The Ni is rubbing off. They think the Pd has to be annealed, to soften it up. There are different ways to anneal, with a flame or a furnace. An expert told me he will recommend a method with a furnace, but I have not heard back from him. If I do hear from him, I will add this information to the Supplement.

  • As Wyttenbach has said at ICCF22;

    The first step in a Hydrogen fusion reaction is the forming of e.g. H*-H*/D*-D* pairs (Hydrino,dense Hydrogen ..) as shown by Mills/Holmlid.

    So how does anyone expect to initiate LENR fusion without initially catalysing hydrino/UDH or in the JR & TM replications ultra dense deuterium? Without a specific UDD catalyst nothing will work - hence the negative Deneum rep., transient Xhang rep probably due to lack of metal oxide catalysts. I proposed a thin oxide metal layer on the 316 stainless steel or some remaining NiO or PdO2 may have been sufficient, or the Pd used by Mizuno may have contained some Ir or Rh hydrogenation catalysts. Either way it would seem sensible to add in Holmlid's UDD catalyst KFeO2 to kickstart any subsequent fusion reactions in these replication attempts to ensure this first step in D fusion reactions.

  • Status:

    The welder will do my endcap this week.

    I'm tentatively going to anneal my Pd with a camping stove (Jetboil, isobutane/propane mix, 1900C).

    The biggest issue is my tubomolecular pumps (both) don't work. I have a 4 page thread on fusor.net with endless troubleshooting. This is the biggest frustration.

  • Sorry to hear about your TM pumps issues. The problem is failure to achieve the desired value? Does it hold when you switch the pumps off?

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.