Hello Jed,
Did you ever look and see the hardness of Mizuno's palladium rod?
Could you also ask him if it has ever went any processes that could have softened it?
MIZUNO REPLICATION AND MATERIALS ONLY
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Here's another crazy thought. If he has used it in previous LENR experiments, is there a chance that it could have some small percentage of hydrogen or deuterium already loaded into it?
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Yes. You noticed the problem almost immediately, and so would anyone else who compares the inlet to ambient temperature. It is impossible to miss. You might say, "but suppose we don't compare the inlet to ambient?" I think that only a person who has never done experiments and has no common sense and no feel for how they should be done would make that mistake. In our recipe, Mizuno and I did not mention this step, because we assumed everyone who does the experiment knows to do this -- along with many other things.
I am glad you mentioned this. But I think you should acknowledge that it is a trivial issue that will never be a problem, because it surely be discovered immediately.
If it were not for the obvious increase in inlet temperature correlating to the heater and outlet temperatures and sudden drop back to ambient, it might look like ~100 W of excess heat.
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Elsewhere, you mentioned the effect of changing humidity on the experiment. It is okay to list that, but I think you should have said, "we know that humidity cannot be a problem because it does not vary much in Sapporo, it hardly varies at all indoors, and even at the extremes it is too small to have a significant effect." I think that when you mention that but you do not say it has no significant impact, you do a disservice to the discussion here. You give the impression there may be a problem where there isn't.
I only meant that if the data were particularly clean, it would be possible to determine if humidity was used as a parameter. Does that matter? Maybe not much, but what it probably means that Standard Conditions were not used, which requires some different constants for heat calculations than Actual Conditions. Which only matters if you want the right answer.
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Did you ever look and see the hardness of Mizuno's palladium rod?
No. Sorry, I have been out of the office except briefly, and I forgot.
Here's another crazy thought. If he has used it in previous LENR experiments, is there a chance that it could have some small percentage of hydrogen or deuterium already loaded into it?
No, I am pretty sure he did not. I have never seen an experiment with a rod of this shape and size. It is way too big, and Mizuno has not done an electrochemical experiment in a long time.
I only meant that if the data were particularly clean, it would be possible to determine if humidity was used as a parameter.
It was not a parameter. In some cases atmospheric pressure was included, but the effects from that were tiny, and there was really no point to it.
You can run the numbers and see that humidity could not affect this data measurably. It would be lost in the noise. Look at the sensitivity and the error bars for this instrument. Also, there is no clean data from this lab. Look at the variation in ambient temperatures. The noise from that translates to a ~2 W error. Mizuno made heroic efforts to reduce this, but it is still very noisy.
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It was not a parameter. In some cases atmospheric pressure was included, but the effects from that were tiny, and there was really no point to it.
You can run the numbers and see that humidity could not affect this data measurably. It would be lost in the noise. Look at the sensitivity and the error bars for this instrument. Also, there is no clean data from this lab. Look at the variation in ambient temperatures. The noise from that translates to a ~2 W error. Mizuno made heroic efforts to reduce this, but it is still very noisy.
The humidity itself has a small effect, but if humidity is not being used, then perhaps a standard condition is being used, which also specifies the temperature of the air, which has another effect, if say for example velocity was read in NTP units but being used in STP calculations without a commensurate adjustment.
But my original point was that excess heat and calibration heat information from the same calorimeter, same blower speed, etc., for even several different power ranges, should allow reversing some calculations in order to spit out a velocity value, and that value, even when wrong (skewed really), for whatever reason, will end up with almost the same velocity result for each example from that calorimeter. -
But my original point was that excess heat and calibration heat information from the same calorimeter, same blower speed, etc., for even several different power ranges, should allow reversing some calculations in order to spit out a velocity value,
Yes. I did that, here in this forum and in Slide 19:
https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTincreasedea.pdf
QUOTE:
We also know the air is well mixed because the Reynolds number is computed at ~18,000, and
any number over 2,300 indicates a turbulent flow, with well mixed air.
We also know this is correct because we can compute the flow rate from the other three
parameters. With a low power calibration, losses from the walls are negligible, so the weight of
air equals energy divided by temperature times specific heat. It is within 2% of what the
instruments measure. Those other three parameters have been checked with numerous
instruments so we are sure they are correct. -
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Yes. I did that, here in this forum and in Slide 19:
https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTincreasedea.pdf
QUOTE:
We also know the air is well mixed because the Reynolds number is computed at ~18,000, and
any number over 2,300 indicates a turbulent flow, with well mixed air.
We also know this is correct because we can compute the flow rate from the other three
parameters. With a low power calibration, losses from the walls are negligible, so the weight of
air equals energy divided by temperature times specific heat. It is within 2% of what the
instruments measure. Those other three parameters have been checked with numerous
instruments so we are sure they are correct.It may be easy for you to do, but the rest of us have only bits and pieces to work with.
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It may be easy for you to do, but the rest of us have only bits and pieces to work with.
I believe the spreadsheets we uploaded will allow you to do this. In any case, you need only three numbers: the input power and the inlet and outlet temperatures. I did the calculation for two or three of the low power calibrations, and I uploaded the numbers here. Several times. It is difficult to search through these messages, but I do not recall anyone who disagreed or asked for more examples.
As I said, low power calibrations work because the losses from the walls are negligible. Also because the temperature difference is small, so the weight and specific heat of air is listed on the online references and close to STP. Despite the ambient temperature perturbations, the average temperature difference over time is very stable, and always the same at the same input power level, with calibrations. (Not with excess heat!) You can see that in the calibration spreadsheets we uploaded.
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Anyways, in the spirit of science, I opened up the SSVR box and installed a choke and caps assy from a microwave to clean up the noise on the line from the triacs. Hoping to stabilize the heater input better. The “set” output voltage inevitably wanders around after a while and it is annoying. I have a 48 V DC 350 W power supply coming to simply plug in for the 200 W runs for voltage stability.
So, while testing that out, I also just added a 13 mm wide piece of black electrical tape to the inlet thermocouple to sort-of simulate the former bubble cover (about 5 cm long). The tape is flat with the thermocouple centred in the length, and the not sticky side is facing the inside of the calorimeter box. After cooling down from touching it, it looks like a solid 3 C increase in inlet temperature. I’ll turn it 90 degrees in a while (to align it with the airflow instead of against it). Then I’ll try to aim it at the heater, like a fat antenna.
Edit: Fantastic! I turned the tape stuck to the inlet TC 90 degrees, (so it is aligned with the airflow), and it went right back to ambient (down 3 C), and fairly quickly, too......
Surprise #2: Aiming the tape at the heater coil seems to get an inlet temperature between the perpendicular and the parallel to air flow positions (it is roughly 45 degrees to airflow). Maybe it makes a back-eddy that pulls heated calorimeter air towards it when it is non-parallel to airflow?
And after taking the tape strip off to cool the TC to ambient again, I stuck the strip back on, this time with the tape non-sticky side facing out, perpendicular to flow (TC exposed facing into the box), the inlet temperature jumped up 5 C..
The spikes in inlet temperature (below) are from touching the TC while adding tape.
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And so, perhaps lost in the up and downs (above) is that when the calorimeter inlet TC is working normally, the open resistor, at 450+ C, glowing dull red wires inside the box has the same delta T as the 20 x 50 cm SS cylinder with the resistor sealed inside it, and an outside T of about 100 C, at the same 210 W (ish) input power.
So there you go. A normal range of size and shape differences of the heat source at the same input power makes no difference to the calorimeter at steady state.
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The 48 V DC 350 W power supply arrived early today, a nice surprise. Wired it up, installed it, set it to 50.0 V (it is adjustable +/- about 4 V). And three hours later, still 50.0 V. AC ripple 0.0076 V. Awesome.
Now I am assembling an Arduino data logger to (eventually) get all calorimeter sensors onto the same time stamp.
Apparently I can have 100 thermocouples logging simultaneously (offset by a few ms for each one) but I doubt I will try it. -
The 48 V DC 350 W power supply arrived early today, a nice surprise. Wired it up, installed it, set it to 50.0 V (it is adjustable +/- about 4 V). And three hours later, still 50.0 V. AC ripple 0.0076 V. Awesome.
Now I am assembling an Arduino data logger to (eventually) get all calorimeter sensors onto the same time stamp.
Apparently I can have 100 thermocouples logging simultaneously (offset by a few ms for each one) but I doubt I will try it.Why run a 48V power supply at 50.0, i.e. past its rated operating voltage? Might burn it out or be unstable. Why not run it at 48V?
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Why run a 48V power supply at 50.0, i.e. past its rated operating voltage? Might burn it out or be unstable. Why not run it at 48V?
Many fixed voltage supplies are adjustable over a small range. That lets you set a higher voltage to compensate for voltage drops in the wiring or voltage drops across diodes (when used to OR power from multiple supplies in parallel). There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of the voltage adjustment.
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Why run a 48V power supply at 50.0, i.e. past its rated operating voltage? Might burn it out or be unstable. Why not run it at 48V?
The power supply is only running 200 W out of the 350 W capacity and 4 A out of the 7.5 A capacity. It comes with a little trim pot for V right next to the wire connection header. I think it is normally used for big LED systems that are run in 4 banks of 12 V.
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Plot from new power supply data, below, with a section with electrical tape 12 mm wide on Inlet TC, non-sticky side facing out, perpendicular to airflow.
(This part was cut off the earlier test due to accidentally turning off the data logger).
The heater temperature now stays dead flat, so I call that a huge improvement. Now I can test outlet air velocity etc. with confidence.
Also, I switched the heater TC to one installed between the bubble foil and the acrylic box, on the RH side of the lid, just to see how hot that gets.
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Apparently I can have 100 thermocouples logging simultaneously (offset by a few ms for each one) but I doubt I will try it.
100 is 96 more than you need, I think. 2 on inlet, and 2 on outlet is sufficient. Check them against alcohol thermometers.
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https://www.adafruit.com/product/2651100 is 96 more than you need, I think. 2 on inlet, and 2 on outlet is sufficient. Check them against alcohol thermometers.
Ideally two on the outlet, two on the inlet, one ambient nearby, and one for the inside box lid for emergency notice (like acrylic box in danger of melting), one for the heater/inside reactor, one for outside of the heater/reactor...
Also there is a nice Bosch air pressure (in hPa, +/- 1 hPa accuracy), temperature, and humidity sensor, all in one. The air pressure sensor is good enough to be used as an altimeter. I think one in the calorimeter box and one in the outlet should be good enough to verify the outlet velocity. (Used as a manometer). I’ll have get one working first.
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I know nothing of Arduino or Raspberry programming and haven’t programmed anything since maybe 35 years (raw hexadecimal) but yesterday I spent about 3 hours wrestling with new parts to get the serial monitor of a Arduino and data logging shield to “print” a time stamp every two seconds. Still getting some random extra characters in the time, so looking at that today.
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Paradigmnoia I've done some Arduino and Raspberry programming for my own projects. I would not recommend Raspberry for what you are doing. Which Arduino are you playing with? Which logging shield? Where are you located? (I'm in Seattle area.)
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Paradigmnoia I've done some Arduino and Raspberry programming for my own projects. I would not recommend Raspberry for what you are doing. Which Arduino are you playing with? Which logging shield? Where are you located? (I'm in Seattle area.)
I am using an Arduino Mega2560 with an Adafruit data logging shield.
Starting to get the hang of it. I was able to put zeros in front of the time single digits, and work out proper incremental time samples based on Unix ms timing (rather than just a delay). The most annoying part is that stuff copied from off IDE won’t paste into IDE.
