• OK, I missed that detail in your original proposal, and my comment applied mainly to those responding to it. Each of the cylinders should be considered as a "black box" containing a source of heat, and I agree with your conclusion that given identical exterior qualities, the equilibrium external temperature will be the same for each.

  • I agree with your conclusion that given identical exterior qualities, the equilibrium external temperature will be the same for each.

    But in real life, with actual cylinders, there are bound to be small but measurable differences, as I said before. Even if you use the same cylinder for the two different tests, I expect it would give slightly slightly different results for various reasons. Mainly because the surface temperatures are not uniform.

  • Sorry I believe that is a wrong assumption. It can and will reduce the power going out if it us impossible by the laws of physics and it's electronic design, to do so. Increasing resistance of the filament will insure this at some point. There is not an even nearly perfect power supply. Physics is responsible for how materials behave, leading to the impossibility of such a power supply. The thought experiment of the thermos in a vacuum shows such a power supply is impossible since the increase in resistance would require ever increasing voltage.

    if you cannot put anything more in, when before you were, then it is not at steady state.
    At a moment of change, almost anything goes.

  • I think I posted Zhang's recent results in this thread. Anyway, today he reported more experiments. He works fast! Someone suggested he try "thermoacoustic" stimulation. Which is what it sounds like, but don't ask me. Anyway, he tried that, in record time. It ran for a while with 300 W input, then 200 W, then it began to produce 1 W excess, and it edged up to 2 W. Here is the graph:

  • My criticism referred to the overall progress (or lack thereof) in the conversation. I said "There's a general tendency to confuse temperature with power". Power refers to both the electric input to the heater, and the heat and other forms of power coming out of the device. The most basic tenet of thermodynamics is that at equilibrium those two should be equal. Equilibrium means that neither the input power nor the measured output power should change over the measurement interval.

    Practical thermodynamics further informs us that at equilibrium the measured output power will always be less than the input power, unless an additional source (chemical, LENR etc.) has been overlooked.

    Understanding and applying these basic definitions is where any discussion should start.

    Finally, in the case of LENR we are searching for that additional source of power, detected as "excess heat". For any such success to be convincing, the measurement technique must be proven by repeated calibrations, with limits of measurement accuracy determined and documented as part of the calibration process. Repeatability is more important than absolute accuracy, and a calibration constant is often used to account for small unmeasured output paths.

  • My criticism referred to the overall progress (or lack thereof) in the conversation. I said "There's a general tendency to confuse temperature with power".

    Yup! The two are often confused.

    Also, some people confuse power with energy. And some confuse high power with energy beyond the limits of chemistry, for example by claiming that if a cathode is not hot enough to scorch wood, it cannot be producing nuclear energy beyond the limits of chemistry. Even some professional scientists are confused about these issues. See p. 6:


  • I'm using the following grit size conversion chart for the sandpaper for use on the nickel mesh in my Mizuno replication experiment.


    Mizuno lists this in the supplemental:

    Silicon Carbide Wet-Dry Abrasive: grits: 500CC, 800CC, 1200CC, 1500CC.

    Note the "CC"

    here is the supplemental:


    here is a japanese manufacturer that uses "CC" but I gather that just relates to water resistance and it is usable for hand sanding etc.


    According to the conversion chart (hocktools link at top of this message) it can be seen that 1500 grit in Japan is equivalent to 950 grit in American units (ANSI/CAMI). And 500 grit in Japan is equivalent to 380 grit in American units.


  • Hopefully we can get back to the science soon. Last week Mizuno got 800W's out, from 500 in, and Zhang is still reporting excess heat almost weekly.

    As you say "hopefully".. I have heard this so many times before though, it is starting to be difficult to hold that hope. Rumors and non-published reports do little to excite me anymore.

    I understand that some ventures will keep quiet. That is not unusual. I would never hear of them at all. However, the continual leaking of "successes" from some kind of goes against that line of thinking.

    Muzuno's R19 COP and now this 500 -> 800 watt is high enough to quickly eliminate many minor measurement errors that often creep in that can give false COPs. However, Mizuno's history is troublesome in that these reactors should have been verified by third parties long ago and yet were disassembled or sent to people who did not follow up or.... who knows. Always some excuse it seems? I am not saying that Mizuno is like Rossi, but it is either management skill of this project is questionable or lack of knowledge how to bring some invention to market (some scientist will not have a clue how to do this) is evident. I.E. we know IH was interested in Mizuno's stuff, but he could not deliver when that opportunity knocked. This is concerning.

    The invention of the century and one cannot get it reliably verified? Very troublesome indeed. I am not talking about replication. To hell with that at the moment. All we hear is excuses why it cannot be done anyway! Get someone to verify that the claimed results are real from the working reactor by the original researcher. Once that is done, I would expect all the money one needs would be rather easily gained. Crap, if Rossi can get 10 million with his fraud, how hard can it be for a legitimate researcher, allowing legitimate scientists / engineers to verify the results with their own measurements etc. ?

    Then again, my memory well serves me that when this Mizuno break through was first announced, it was stated that experienced and knowledgeable researchers were then working on replications and that reports would be made public... positive or negative.... has not happened and are we not about two years into this?

    (Yes, some will say two years is nothing and start the excuses again... I am not talking about replication... I am talking about getting claims verified which should not take but a few weeks at most)

    If Mizuno is reporting 500->500 watts, I hope to heck that qualified people are there verifying measurement methods, procedures and equipment this time! I am not saying Mizuno is dishonest, just that anyone can be wrong at times. Hopefully not this time!

    "I dunno"......:/

  • A X-Y plot of all steady state delta T vs input powers and another one of steady state delta T vs output powers could do a great deal of understanding what is going on with the Mizuno work, IMO. Excess (or experiment) in one color of dots, and Calibration in another color should be enough processing.

  • Well said as always. All I can say in defense is that they are very busy trying to make all the things you say happen. Mizuno has been as transparent as anyone in the field before him. Unanticipated things keep getting in the way of a quick resolution though; earthquake destroying his lab, wife with cancer, old age, COVID, the successful replications taking longer than anticipated, and the excess seen not as robust. Investment money not coming in as fast as hoped, and when it comes...conditioned on maintaining IP. They are as frustrated as you.

    Wish I could add more.

    I think the focus on replication needs to be shelved at present. As stated, verification of the researcher's own tests and measurements are all that is needed at present, and I do not think IP would be an issue.

    It appears Mizuno needs to get some experienced and reputable people in his lab, check his testing equipment and measurements and verify nothing is awry or missed. If this happens and the visitors write up a good report with actual data (such as Para mentions above) then I believe A) getting funds will not be an issue B) getting serious replicators will not be an issue C) Mizuno will be on his way to a Nobel!

    If qualified people are indeed verifying Mizuno's data, then why cannot this be published? This would not reveal IP (unlikely) and would go a long ways in solidifying the dependability of the claims. True, Mizuno did release data, but there were some valid questions. Answers did not seem to be available. Raw data would have certainly helped.

    I believe we have a very capable and experienced researcher here in Magicsound. He could not get a replication to work, nor even get good answers to questions at times. This is not how to proceed in my opinion. If he were agreeable, I would suggest getting a GoFundMe project up to send him to Mizuno's lab and spend a few days verifying this 500-800w system, verifying the measurements and processes. He could then probably come back and have a successful replication within weeks IF Mizuno's system was truly operating as such and had any repeatability at all.

    But for some reason, getting verification seems too simple yet does not seem to happen. We can still hope. Again, I call for putting replication aside for now and concentrate of verification of claimed test data.

  • Bob#2 A trip to Japan is neither possible nor appropriate for me given the current circumstances. I urge you to curb your impatience regarding replication. This stuff takes time!

    As I've said before, the Mizuno experiment is deceptively difficult, due to the several factors discussed in this thread. I'm still dealing with the slow leak observed in my last calibration, expecting yet another new replacement valve in the next few days. Once that is installed, testing will resume. Refer to this Mizuno Replication thread for further details as and when available.

  • Actually Mizuno is doing everything in his power to get all this 'out there', many of the things you mention are in hand or already done. But please forgive him wanting to do it his way rather than your way, he has a lot on his plate right now.

    He has a lot on his plate in his personal life, as Shane D. mentioned. Maybe with experiments and collaborations as well.

    A trip to Japan is neither possible nor appropriate for me given the current circumstances.

    It is not possible for anyone other than a Japanese citizen. Not even me. See:


    There is a sudden burst of cases there. I hope these are all coming from a few well-defined places, such as a few hospitals or nightclubs. I haven't seen the news about them yet.