MIZUNO REPLICATION AND MATERIALS ONLY

I find your analysis here somewhat over-complicated and unnecessary. Surely can't you accept that LENR's are essentially all-or-nothing or essentially digital signals? All the calorimetry does is convert such digital signals to analogue signals at equilibrium. So, scientifically all we have to do is compare analogue to analogue heat signals from an active reactor (containing all the ingredients (Ni mesh, D or H2O) with an exact replica (no Ni mesh, D or H20) as control. Then repeat the same measurements repeatedly (the 'boring' part) until we have statistically significant results!

Quote from magicsound

So I would prefer that the graph with the T^4 radiative cooling to have reactor temperature on the vertical axis, giving the thermal Q of the system as the slope of the curve, or dT/dP. If I understand Bruce's examples correctly, the red trace curving upward does show decreasing dT/dP. The vertical axis is labeled as dQ/dt in the first two graphs, which may be the equivalent of input power P.

I am using "Q" to denote heat energy (in joules, say). dQ/dt is, therefore, power (in joules per unit time) and the plots I made show the power of heat dissipation or generation in the reactor as a function of temperature. Since dQ = mc*dT, I really could have just labelled the vertical axis on the power plots "dT/dt" and it wouldn't have made any difference from the standpoint of the qualitative analysis I have undertaken.

I treat internally generated (LENR) heat as determined by reactor temperature, T. That is, for any value of T, I assume that there is a unique rate of internal heat generation produced by the LENR mechanism -- just like a reaction rate. That is why I put rate on the vertical axis and T on the horizontal axis. It is Daniel_G's claim that the rate of LENR heat generation increases exponentially with T. The red lines in my plot show this. To fit cooling into the same plots, the blue lines show the rate of heat dispersal as likewise a function of temperature (*but see footnote).

Overall then, I am assuming that the temperature dynamics of the reactor are described by an autonomous nonlinear 1-dimensional ODE with state variable T. So we have dT/dt = f(T, parameters) where f() is a nonlinear function of T given by heating rate minus cooling rate (the red line minus the blue line).

One of the parameters of f() is the amplitude of externally controlled heating (which is independent of temperature). I use this as the control parameter in the bifurcation analysis of the system. The bottom panel in my figures shows a so-called bifurcation diagram with the control parameter (external heating) along the x-axis and the dynamic variable (T) on the vertical axis. The general set of analysis ideas and techniques here is taken from dynamical systems theory which is often used to analyze excitable systems -- which is what a reactor supplied with a temperature-activated source of heating is.

I hope this is clear. I am not sure how it tracks with the methods you use for analyzing calorimetric data.

* [I should make clear that, purely to aid insight, I have portrayed the rate of cooling in my plots with the opposite sign that it actually has. This is so that equilibrium points, where heating and cooling rates just balance, can be spotted as crossings of the red and blue lines. In reality, the blue lines in the plots should be downwardly sloping and lie mostly below the x axis. I perhaps didn't explain this well before].

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Way back in this thread there should be images I posted of a series of incandescent lamps being turned on in W steps, including switching two lamps at once using various wattage lamps (50, 100, 150, for example), for a wide range of input steps in my enhanced Mizuno-based mass airflow calorimeter. This by remotely independently switching 4 different lamps inside during a non stop, no messing with the calorimeter operation, (add 50 W, settle, etc.). It may be informative.

*If I find it I’ll link it HERE.

In general, the object just reaches whatever temperature it needs to be in order to reach steady state, surface area and airflow the most critical dimensions as to final surface temperature required at whatever emissivity it is. Poor emissivity just results in a higher surface temperature so that convection transfer can compensate, but at the same total wattage.(If poor emissivity reduces the radiant power by 30W compared to a blackbody version then the surface temperature increases until convection can carry the 30W away. This happens instantly, since very few materials can strongly change total radiant emissivity very much at a given temperature.

But really it is just a geometry problem of solving or designing how hot the surface of a heating body might be in a given power range. Surface area is the strongest control of heat transfer, since that’s where the rubber hits the road. Perhaps a heat memory metal origami fin structure that works like a heat governor could optimize the heat transfer to the ideal rate for any temperature over a large range.

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Mizuno's forced-air calorimeter is so different from the oven-based system that Daniel_G has been using that I haven't yet tried to model it. On the other hand, something that I pointed out to Daniel_G is relevant here. I pointed out that the ultimate model of his oven-based system is the system itself. One could replace the reactor mesh with a computer-controlled heat source and make sure that the rate of heat injected into the reactor via this internal heater activates exponentially with reactor temperature (so ... one would need a thermocouple in the reactor and to control injected heat on the basis of the sensed temperature). One would then not need to make assumptions about different types of cooling etc. because they are real and playing out against internal heating with LENR-like properties as determined by the operator. I would then expect all properties I have been enumerating to pop up and Daniel_G could, for example, find out the location of the threshold beyond which lies thermal escape to meltdown in his system. This is something I would have thought one would want to know in a system that is advertised as being prepared for commercial operation.

In your forced-air calorimeter I would think that you could play the same game. Tuck in a source of internal heat generation that is temperature sensitive and see if you get what Mizuno and Rothwell claim. This could be roughly approximated by your lights if you switch them on on a temperature-sensitive basis. You would have to have some sort of geometric progression of lights ... i.e., 1 light at first, then double to 2 lights, then 4, and so on, as temperature rises.

Quote from Cydonia

Radiative cooling becomes the main one above 700°. So his expectations are closely linked with the kind of reactor we are talking about.

Yes, in the R20 case the conduction plays now in the case of Glowstick experiments only the radiative cooling was involved, i think.

Yes. From looking at some early results Daniel_G released, the cooling of his oven/reactor system is almost linear over 20-200 degrees C. Probably emissivity (of the outside of his oven) is low and so radiative cooling doesn't play much of a role there.

Quote from Bruce__H

Mizuno's forced-air calorimeter is so different from the oven-based system that Daniel_G has been using that I haven't yet tried to model it. On the other hand, something that I pointed out to Daniel_G is relevant here. I pointed out that the ultimate model of his oven-based system is the system itself. One could replace the reactor mesh with a computer-controlled heat source and make sure that the rate of heat injected into the reactor via this internal heater activates exponentially with reactor temperature (so ... one would need a thermocouple in the reactor and to control injected heat on the basis of the sensed temperature). One would then not need to make assumptions about different types of cooling etc. because they are real and playing out against internal heating with LENR-like properties as determined by the operator. I would then expect all properties I have been enumerating to pop up and Daniel_G could, for example, find out the location of the threshold beyond which lies thermal escape to meltdown in his system. This is something I would have thought one would want to know in a system that is advertised as being prepared for commercial operation.

In your forced-air calorimeter I would think that you could play the same game. Tuck in a source of internal heat generation that is temperature sensitive and see if you get what Mizuno and Rothwell claim. This could be roughly approximated by your lights if you switch them on on a temperature-sensitive basis. You would have to have some sort of geometric progression of lights ... i.e., 1 light at first, then double to 2 lights, then 4, and so on, as temperature rises.

Perhaps a MoSiC heater element is a more close analogue.

Some neat stuff in here: Kanthal silicon carbide catalog for oven design.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Perhaps a MoSiC heater element is a more close analogue.

Some neat stuff in here: Kanthal silicon carbide catalog for oven design.

You bet!

Any heating element that is good up to highish temperatures and capable of a sufficient rate heat generation would do. Then hook it up to a controllable current source and you have a potential LENR analogue. You don't even need an elaborate control system if the expected speed of temperature excursions is not too fast. A human with a lookup table would do.

Quote from Dr Richard*

I find your analysis here somewhat over-complicated and unnecessary. Surely can't you accept that LENR's are essentially all-or-nothing or essentially digital signals? All the calorimetry does is convert such digital signals to analogue signals at equilibrium. So, scientifically all we have to do is compare analogue to analogue heat signals from an active reactor (containing all the ingredients (Ni mesh, D or H2O) with an exact replica (no Ni mesh, D or H20) as control. Then repeat the same measurements repeatedly (the 'boring' part) until we have statistically significant results!

My analysis do you mean? Or Paradigmnoia's?

Quote from Bruce__H

Overall then, I am assuming that the temperature dynamics of the reactor are described by an autonomous nonlinear 1-dimensional ODE with state variable T. So we have dT/dt = f(T, parameters) where f() is a nonlinear function of T given by heating rate minus cooling rate (the red line minus the blue line).

Thanks for your clear explanation. As an experimentalist, I want to test a model against data with known accuracy, for example a set of calibrations. This eliminates the unknown LENR part from f(). By starting with such a test, the usefulness (or not) of a model is shown for a specific experiment. Once that is done, the model can be used to predict the effect of a temperature-dependent LENR reaction.

A model lacking such calibration can still be used to explore the parameter space, but it will yield hypotheses, not predictions. It's still a useful tool, but the context should be made clear to avoid unwarranted criticism or conclusions.

Both, but I will not insult your intelligence because you are on the right track in understanding the basic calorimetry.

I meant the reverse resistance regime of the heater element itself.

A nice plot of the curve here:

Thyristor Control of Silicon Carbide Heaters

Quote from magicsound

A model lacking such calibration can still be used to explore the parameter space, but it will yield hypotheses, not predictions. It's still a useful tool, but the context should be made clear to avoid unwarranted criticism or conclusions.

I partly agree. I would only strike out the word "still" in the second sentence.

I understand your approach. You would follow a subtractive paradigm where the characteristics of an LENR-absent system are sufficiently closely characterized that when claimed LENR mechanism is added its properties can be deduced as observed minus baseline. That is excellent for proving that sufficiently large LENR phenomena either exist or don't exist in the system being examined, but it doesn't address other issues of research and engineering design. Suppose you detect an LENR signal, then what? Well I suppose that one would start to wonder about exactly the issues I have been exploring ... operating regimes, thresholds, meltdown and so on. Conversely, suppose you don't find an LENR signal that rises above uncertainty. Then one would start to wonder about whether there are other parts of parameter space that one would rather be in so as to create bigger, more unmistakable, easier to research signals (hence my fascination with thermal escape or meltdown).

I contend that there is value to making models right now. One can explore the existence of the diverse behaviour regimes that crop up in a thermal mass equipped with temperature-activated internal heating without too closely specifying exact parameter values. The behavioural regimes fit together in characteristic ways and this insight suggests particular experiments or engineering modifications. On the other hand, if there is no temperature-activated heating after all, some of the behaviours won't exist and this lack could be diagnostic too. This is a strong way of moving forward and is the way a lot of science is done anyway.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

I meant the reverse resistance regime of the heater element itself.

A nice plot of the curve here:

https://www.practicalcontrol.c…icon_carbide_control.html

How would you use it? I would have thought that you would want something with increasing resistance over the temperature interval of interest. So, for example, as temperature rises, I^2 R dissipation would increase (if a constant current source is used).

Quote from Bruce__H

understand your approach. You would follow a subtractive paradigm where the characteristics of an LENR-absent system are sufficiently closely characterized that when claimed LENR mechanism is added its properties can be deduced as observed minus baseline.

Not quite, but close. What I suggest is piecewise building of a model schema. Make sure the basic structure is solid by testing it against known parameters. In particular, there are some places in the thermodynamics where values of constants measured empirically can be inserted, to see if the predicted behavior matches the system under study. For example emissivity can be set to any arbitrary value and the resulting thermal behavior calculated, but the result may not be realistic.The Lugano study of Rossi's device is a good example of this kind of modelling flaw.

Anyone familiar with the concept of positive feedback can understand the possibility of a LENR reactor meltdown. To model such a system behavior it's useful to explore the parameter sensitivities, and I think that is what you are working on. In electronic systems, such investigation is sometimes done in order to specify component tolerances, especially where positive feedback or metastable behavior is involved.

From the ICCF24 abstracts:

A Search for Excess Heat: Replication Studies
#Edward J Beiting and Dean Romein
1TrusTech, USA
Email: [email protected]

During the past few years TrusTech has undertaken replication studies to investigate reported incidences of excess heat in nickel-gaseous hydrogen systems. These studies include work reported by Parkhomov et al, [1], Ahern [2], Mizuno and Rothwell [3], and a variation of work by the Technova group [4]. Much of the results of the replication studies of Ref. 1 were presented previously [5, 6] and only an abbreviated report of the replication of Ref. 2 will be present. The main focus of this presentation will on the replication studies of Refs 3 and 4. The replication work of Ref. 4 is continuing and its presentation here will present the latest results.

A schematic of the experimental configuration is presented in the Figure 1. All studies were undertaken by placing samples in an evacuated/pressurized heated reactor cell located inside a flowing liquid calorimeter. The system underwent an automated calibration sequence before a computercontrolled multi-day continuous data acquisition was recorded. Figure 2 displays one of the data sets from the Mizuno replication study. The four graphs show (top to bottom) 1) the cell pressure, 2) the input heat power to the cell, 3) the cell temperature, and 4) excess heat power. To date, no significant excess heat power has been observed

This is also an abstract from ICCF24. Quite the contrast:

The Role of Appropriate Calorimetric Methods for Scaling-up LENR Devices and the Irrelevance of Coefficient of Performance (COP)
#Daniel E. Gruenberg 1, Tadahiko Mizuno 2
1 Mizuno Technology, Inc., Thailand
2 Hokkaido University, Japan Email: [email protected]

We report on major advances in the development of practical and large scale LENR devices. Calorimetric methods have significant influence on results of replications and validations of Mizunotype LENR reactors. We have identified ways to dramatically improve the stability and reliability of LENR excess heat measurements based on well-established thermodynamic and calorimetric principles and have postulated possible mechanisms for the variability in previous experiments. By adapting these new calorimetric methods, we have identified key variables which are now allowing us to scale-up to practical LENR-based devices for industrial heating and combined heat and power units in the kW-class and MW-class scale. Theoretical power density is sufficient to allow for the possible replacement of dangerous radioactive fissile fuel rods with LENR-based fuel rods to dramatically improve the safety of existing nuclear power reactors. Also, notably the irrelevance of COP as a method to compare disparate LENR devices has become abundantly clear. Mizuno-type LENR devices are temperature-dependant heat sources[1] which, together with the calorimeter, form two parts of an inseparable system. Nuclear active environment (NAE) sites[2], spatially, are randomly distributed and are highly sensitive to even slight variations in temperature in Mizuno-type LENR devices.

The physical distance between the resistance wire heating elements wrapped around the device significantly affects the variability in previous excess heat measurements. In addition, airflow calorimeters cannot support high & even temperatures which lead to difficulties in replications. After changing to an oven-type calorimeter, most of the previous variability has been ameliorated, possibly by providing very even temperature distribution across the randomly distributed nuclear-active sites and allowing testing at higher absolute temperatures relative to previously published calorimetry measurements. Another consequence of our research has shown that COP can vary from 1 to infinity with the same device, depending upon the design of the calorimetric system used. The balance of excess heat production and heat outflow affects temperature of the LENR device, which in turn affects the quantity of excess heat. Using small-scale Mizuno-type LENR reactors (7cm ∅, 25cm L) in an oven type calorimeter, as a model system, excess heat varied exponentially with temperature. At 435°C, excess heat output was 45W, which increased to >200W at 593°C. It was found that by doubling catalyst surface area, excess heat production was roughly doubled. Excess heat production at this temperature was consistently 0.22W/cm2 and is expected to increase exponentially at higher temperatures, certain experiments have reached 1-10W/cm2 which means a home CHP unit could be designed to be roughly the size of standard home split unit air conditioner. We are now designing and building practical kWclass reactors in-house and MW-class reactors in collaboration with a major national university in Japan based on the above theoretical temperature dependence and excess heat production per unit surface area results, as well as constructing more precise calorimeters which coincidentally produce very high COPs, perhaps infinite in certain cases. The reliability and precision of these measurements are unprecedented in the LENR field and represent a key element of moving the technology forward towards more practical devices.

Quote from Shane D.

A Search for Excess Heat: Replication Studies
#Edward J Beiting and Dean Romein

Beiting is a skilled person. Very reliable. I wish I knew why he was unable to replicate. Sigh . . .

That is exactly what we plan to talk about. The calorimeter becomes part of the system and they influence each other. The calorimetry can be perfect but if it removes too much heat in the measurement process, then excess heat will be difficult to detect. It will be interesting to take a look at the details of Beiting's replication to see if we can identify some areas we could improve.

One limitation we have is that we have moved on to next generation technology compared to the Pd/Ni system previously published but we are constrained by IP issues so rather than 100% independent replications, we are now aiming for independent validation of reactors produced by Mizuno/MTI. An engineering team from both a publicly traded auto parts maker as well as a major electronics manufacturer have independently verified excess heat far beyond any possible uncertainties. We are now building prototype units that will hopefully do something useful like make pressurized steam to spin a turbine or heat something up.

Quote from Daniel_G

The calorimeter becomes part of the system and they influence each other.

That is in important point. The calorimeter itself is integral to the experiment. Fleischmann emphasized that. He criticized McKubre's isothermal flow calorimeters because they held the temperature steady. (That's what "isothermal" means.) He said was important to let the temperature rise sharply, to boost the reaction once it got started.

Quote from Daniel_G

We are now building prototype units that will hopefully do something useful like make pressurized steam to spin a turbine or heat something up.

That is not necessary. It is a distraction. Just have qualified people such as Beiting use good calorimeters to independently confirm the excess heat. A good scientist will be persuaded by that, and might even be put off by a turbine or other "showboating" demonstration. You want to convince good scientists. Ignore bad scientists and people who do not understand calorimetry.