The NEDO Initiative - Japan's Cold Fusion Programme

Quote from Ascoli65

fed the suspicious

fed the dystopic

Quote from Dr Richard

Let's face it nothing much else hot or cold fusion is going anywhere fast.

Depends what fast means..

hot fusion 2050... cold fusion 2020

Quote from RobertBryant

Any thread with Ascoli65 is in danger of descending into dystopia.

Ascoli has neither the nouse nor the subtlety nor the inclination to identify

a truncation error

which Jed talked about in 2017 in that spreadsheet and

it alleges vexatiously that it is due to pasting..

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As for the Mizuno argument, I will answer to your senseless provocations in the devoted thread (*).

To remain in the topic of this thread, what about the cause of the oscillations in the work presented at JFC20 by Takahashi et al.?

(*) MIZUNO REPLICATION AND MATERIALS ONLY

Quote from Ascoli65

what about the cause of the oscillations in the work presented at JFC20 by Takahashi et al.?

Trolllike obsession with minor points.. oscillation?

The main result of the work was the huge energy per atom... but Ascoli finds oscillation of most interest..

Maybe it can find pasting in the spreadsheets also..

Perhaps the NY will bring reinvention..

Quote from Wyttenbach

Why should in a normal pressure atmosphere just in one location the temperature sink by 100C ??

Cooling can only happen by an even cooler medium

If Takahashi after all these years says its surprising .. then its very surprising...

up to 100C depression for 5-15 minutes

this certainly doesn't fit with his TSC theory...yet

Quote from RobertBryant

If Takahashi after all these years says its surprising .. then its very surprising...

up to 100C depression for 5-15 minutes

this certainly doesn't fit with his TSC theory...yet

The TC4 trace sure looks like adding cold gas every 40 minutes or so.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

The TC4 trace sure looks like adding cold gas every 40 minutes or so.

micrograms of H2..?? as I said ... Takahashi and his colleagues are surprised..

and are still surprised

there is no mundane or simple explanation..

The excess heat plots look the same when they admit the gas.

However, here, the temperature climbs classically to match the adjacent temperature. Note that the adjacent TC doesn’t even budge in response to the TC4 cooling.

Micrograms is surprising, but I know little of the overall arrangement.

Where is TC3, anyways?

AHEs at NEDO-Kobe. A much simpler explanation is OCEs (Ordinary Cooling Events)

Here is my answer to the question I asked to the L-F readers before the Christmas holydays (*).

(btw: HNY everybody!)

In the paper presented on last September at ICCF22, Takahashi et al. observed that:

and concluded:

Well, IMO a much simpler explanation of the TC4's oscillatory fluctuation is provided in the following JPEG.

With reference to the right side of the JPEG, there is no need to postulate the existence of any nuclear AHE to explain the oscillatory behavior shown by the TC4 signal on many graphs of the most recent paper published by Takahashi et al. (1). The sequence of down spikes can be easily interpreted as the effect of Ordinary Cooling Events (OCEs) due to the intermittent operation of an Air Conditioning (AC) unit installed inside the cabin which hosts the Kobe's calorimeter. The on-off cycles are triggered by the ambient temperature settings. During the ON-phase, the MHE reactor is hit by an air flow at high speed which increases the convection heat exchange coefficient h on its external surfaces, by a factor many times higher than natural convection level. Due to the experimental set-up, this increased h causes a rapid cooling of the H/D gas pipe, which is welded on the upper flange of the Reaction Chamber (RC), whose temperature is measured by TC4. This flange is probably insulated from the rest of the RC cylinder by a non-metallic o-ring, so that its temperature is much more sensitive to the temperature of the external pipe, rather than the temperature of the rest of the RC cylinder. Successively, during the longer OFF-phase of the AC cycles, the coefficient h decreases to the level of natural convection and TC4 slowly go back to the higher base temperature. These alternations determine the typical behavior of these down-spikes, each one is formed by a rapid and shorter segment of a decreasing exponential branch, followed by a slower and longer segment of a rising exponential branch. They are just a manifestation of the cooling (and heating) law known since Newton's times!

As for the specific graph presented on the JPEG and extracted from page 15 of the most recent presentation of Takahashi et al. at JCF20 (1), the 2 periods of wider oscillations correspond to possible working hours. So, the larger amplitude of TC4 oscillations can be due to a wider values of the temperature settings of the AC unit during the presence of personnel in the cabin. During nights and the days with no human intervention inside the cabin, the AC cycles exhibited a regular pace triggered by a narrower settings of the on-off thresholds.

The NEDO-Kobe oscillations of TC4 are very similar to the power oscillation presented by Celani at NIWeek2012 in Austin, TX (2a) and at ICCF17 in S.Korea (2b), which are shown on the left side of the JPEG. There are a couple of main differences. As shown by the red curve, during the test, held at the beginning of June 2012, a fan heater was cyclically activated to avoid T_Room decreasing below 22°C during the nights. During these cycles, the T_Ext_Glass and the T_Room are in counterphase, ie, while the fan heater is ON, the first decreases and the second rises. This apparently contradictory behavior shows that the value of T_Ext_Glass, which was directly used to estimate the power output (black curve), is heavily affected by the velocity of the air flowing around the hot glass tube, which increases the coefficient of convective heat exchange and causes large drops of the glass temperature.

Conversely, during the warm days of June, the temperature in the lab rose to 25-27 °C and the AC unit was activated. In particular, during the 2^nd and 3^rd days, the large and frequent oscillations of the T_Ext_Glass temperature (red curve) and the Power output (black curve) are easily explained by the swinging of the louvers of the AC unit.

In conclusion, the ordinary cooling effects due to a discontinuous operation of the HVAC units are able to easily explain the oscillatory behavior of the curves presented as AHEs by Celani in 2012 and Takahashi in 2019. The same trivial phenomenon is also able to explain the results obtained by Saito et al. when they tested the Mizuno's cells at Hokkaido University of Science (3).

(*) The NEDO Initiative - Japan's Cold Fusion Programme

(1) https://www.researchgate.net/p…_of_Nano-Metal_and_HD-Gas

(2a) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe5rcEvsek0 [at 4:06]

(2b) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CelaniFcunimnalloa.pdf

(3) MIZUNO REPLICATION AND MATERIALS ONLY

Quote from Ascoli65

AHEs at NEDO-Kobe. A much simpler explanation is OCEs (Ordinary Cooling Events)

Here is my answer to the question I asked to the L-F readers before the Christmas holydays (*).

(btw: HNY everybody!)

In the paper presented on last September at ICCF22, Takahashi et al. observed that:

From https://www.researchgate.net/p…-Metal_and_HD-Gas_revised In Fig.4, we show temperature evolution data for the #1-2 burst event. Obviously, the behavior of TC4 is very strange with many oscillatory down-spikes…. … … The oscillatory TC4 fluctuation looks chaotic as you see in Fig.7. This is regarded as an indication of strong local AHE, which makes H-gas turbulence by generation of chaotic up- and down-stream-paths of convection gas flow in RC. …

and concluded:

As new findings, the H(D)-gas turbulence effect in reaction chamber (RC) under strong AHE power becomes strong in our C-calorimetry system, when we have met strong local AHE power evolution in RC. This gas turbulence effect cooled the RC upper flange and generated chaotic temperature evolution of TC4 upper flange temperature and mostly decreased oil-outlet temperatures monitored at TC1 and TC2. … … Origin of AHE can be regarded as some nuclear origin …

Well, IMO a much simpler explanation of the TC4's oscillatory fluctuation is provided in the following JPEG.

With reference to the right side of the JPEG, there is no need to postulate the existence of any nuclear AHE to explain the oscillatory behavior shown by the TC4 signal on many graphs of the most recent paper published by Takahashi et al. (1). The sequence of down spikes can be easily interpreted as the effect of Ordinary Cooling Events (OCEs) due to the intermittent operation of an Air Conditioning (AC) unit installed inside the cabin which hosts the Kobe's calorimeter. The on-off cycles are triggered by the ambient temperature settings. During the ON-phase, the MHE reactor is hit by an air flow at high speed which increases the convection heat exchange coefficient h on its external surfaces, by a factor many times higher than natural convection level. Due to the experimental set-up, this increased h causes a rapid cooling of the H/D gas pipe, which is welded on the upper flange of the Reaction Chamber (RC), whose temperature is measured by TC4. This flange is probably insulated from the rest of the RC cylinder by a non-metallic o-ring, so that its temperature is much more sensitive to the temperature of the external pipe, rather than the temperature of the rest of the RC cylinder. Successively, during the longer OFF-phase of the AC cycles, the coefficient h decreases to the level of natural convection and TC4 slowly go back to the higher base temperature. These alternations determine the typical behavior of these down-spikes, each one is formed by a rapid and shorter segment of a decreasing exponential branch, followed by a slower and longer segment of a rising exponential branch. They are just a manifestation of the cooling (and heating) law known since Newton's times!

As for the specific graph presented on the JPEG and extracted from page 15 of the most recent presentation of Takahashi et al. at JCF20 (1), the 2 periods of wider oscillations correspond to possible working hours. So, the larger amplitude of TC4 oscillations can be due to a wider values of the temperature settings of the AC unit during the presence of personnel in the cabin. During nights and the days with no human intervention inside the cabin, the AC cycles exhibited a regular pace triggered by a narrower settings of the on-off thresholds.

The NEDO-Kobe oscillations of TC4 are very similar to the power oscillation presented by Celani at NIWeek2012 in Austin, TX (2a) and at ICCF17 in S.Korea (2b), which are shown on the left side of the JPEG. There are a couple of main differences. As shown by the red curve, during the test, held at the beginning of June 2012, a fan heater was cyclically activated to avoid T_Room decreasing below 22°C during the nights. During these cycles, the T_Ext_Glass and the T_Room are in counterphase, ie, while the fan heater is ON, the first decreases and the second rises. This apparently contradictory behavior shows that the value of T_Ext_Glass, which was directly used to estimate the power output (black curve), is heavily affected by the velocity of the air flowing around the hot glass tube, which increases the coefficient of convective heat exchange and causes large drops of the glass temperature.

Conversely, during the warm days of June, the temperature in the lab rose to 25-27 °C and the AC unit was activated. In particular, during the 2^nd and 3^rd days, the large and frequent oscillations of the T_Ext_Glass temperature (red curve) and the Power output (black curve) are easily explained by the swinging of the louvers of the AC unit.

In conclusion, the ordinary cooling effects due to a discontinuous operation of the HVAC units are able to easily explain the oscillatory behavior of the curves presented as AHEs by Celani in 2012 and Takahashi in 2019. The same trivial phenomenon is also able to explain the results obtained by Saito et al. when they tested the Mizuno's cells at Hokkaido University of Science (3).

(*) The NEDO Initiative - Japan's Cold Fusion Programme

(1) https://www.researchgate.net/p…_of_Nano-Metal_and_HD-Gas

(2a) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe5rcEvsek0 [at 4:06]

(2b) http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CelaniFcunimnalloa.pdf

(3) MIZUNO REPLICATION AND MATERIALS ONLY

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You don't think they controled for variations in AC and aren't most labs where sensitive temperature related measurements are made have special conditions to avoid your proposed excuse for dismissing the evidence?

Quote from Ascoli65

The sequence of down spikes can be easily interpreted as the effect of Ordinary Cooling Events (OCEs) due to the intermittent operation of an Air Conditioning (AC)

Extraordinary Ordinary Cooling Effects..

blahblah without calculation

Quote from Ascoli65

The on-off cycles are triggered by the ambient temperature settings. During the ON-phase, the MHE reactor is hit by an air flow at high speed which increases the convection heat exchange coefficient h on its external surfaces, by a factor many times higher than natural convection level.

I visited Takahashis reactor building/room: I can confirm Ascolis post is 1000% nonsense as the room temperature is controlled down to 1/1000C. No fan is even close to the reactor...

ITER money makes blind...

Quote from LeBob

You don't think they controled for variations in AC and aren't most labs where sensitive temperature related measurements are made have special conditions to avoid your proposed excuse for dismissing the evidence?

The scarce effectiveness of the "special conditions" set in the INFN lab to control the ambient conditions is documented by the trend of T_Room (green line) in the graph shown on my JPEG.

As for the cabin at Kobe lab, the temperature was much better controlled, probably too much. When there are hot parts, such as in the INFN and Kobe experiments, the main problems arise from the air speed, not the air temperature. Changing the air speed to control the air temperature is detrimental.

Now a question for you. How do you explain (in the simplest possible way, of course) the fact that, during the H-CNZ#1-2 test, held on September 19, 2018, the down spikes in the TC4 curve terminate suddenly at 18:30 ca. (see page 51 of (1)) and, on the contrary, the TC4 temperature during the H-CNZ#1-8 test, held on October 1, 2018, has no spikes (see page 59 of (1))?

A hint: you can find the temperatures in Kobe here: https://www.timeanddate.com/we…istoric?month=9&year=2018

(1) https://www.researchgate.net/p…_of_Nano-Metal_and_HD-Gas

Quote from Alan Smith

4 posts moved from here to 'Clearance Items'. Reason, they contained misleading information and/or were somewhat off topic.

I don't understand why you moved my post (*), which was showing the position of the AC unit inside the Kobe cabin. It is the answer to the Wyttenbach's post, in which he stated that "No fan is even close to the reactor...". This latter was the real misleading information and it is still in place!

The cabin was, and still is, actively cooled, as confirmed by Wyttenbach himself a couple of weeks ago:

So during his visit, the AC unit was still there, presumably in the same position shown in the photo posted by JedRothwell in January 2018 (1). That is just above the calorimeter. About one meter from the H(D) gas pipe which is directly welded to the upper flange of the reactor!

(*) Clearance Items

(1) Research Team in Japan Reports Excess Heat - (Nissan Motors among otheres)

Quote from Alan Smith

The photograph is dated 2011. Things might have changed a little (or a lot) since then. Hence the photograph is misleading in the current context.

The following JPEG shows much more recent photographs of the Kobe lab.

The AC unit was still there.