Which is just the tip of the iceberg of the intimidation I and recently departed wife (God rest her soul) have received to date. Presumably for our Marxist-Leninist views that an equal say for every individual is essential for a social democratic state. Read Pericles if you don't believe me. Yes we both voted Labour at the last election, but did not support Momentum. So now the forces that be think I am a Russian/Chinese spy and have acted accordingly, sabotaging my computers and other electronics (even my Hi Fi system). Fortunately having worked at UCL for nearly thirty years I am an electronics and computer hardware expert and have managed to fix everything that they rigged. Yes if you have a Chubb or Union door lock the venerable Guild of Locksmiths can give the lock code to the 'secret police' amongst the freemasonry and enter any residence without detection whilst you are out shopping etc. Now this has become a WAR. Whilst I abhorrr violence (I only fight in self-defence) my only option now is to recruit members of my own 'family, the Comorra, to conduct punitive strikes against them.
Covid-19 News
- Alan Smith
- Closed
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Just for clarity - my response to "uk doctors are criminal":
Why did the UK and Canadian HCQ trials both use a high initial dose?
(1) Looking at the in vivo data, if HCQ is to be effective as anti-viral, you need enough of it. The quantities requred are quite high
(2) HCQ has along half-life in tissues - 22 days. Therefore it build up incrementally. To get a high level quickly, which everyone agrees is needed for anti-viral effectiveness, you need to front-load the dose.
If you want to give HCQ its best chance of being effective as anti-viral you give as much as you can as early as you can.
And before others claim "it needs zinc" note that few people are zinc deficient and even if pushing levels up higher helps (unproven) if HCQ and more zinc works, HCQ will also work.
The UK trial claimed that they had calculated highest safe front-loaded dose based on specialist pharmokinetic analysis of how HCQ levels in serum vary with time and blood HCQ level.
In addition, the trial monitored very carefully for signs of HCQ toxicity.
They might have got this stuff wrong, but I'd not believe any non-medic here over their best effort and well informed analysis. especially when I've seen no detailed analysis here, just rhetoric and observational correlations that mean nothing.
Finally, the sting in the tail for HCQ is that it actually has two separate potential effects. anti-viral and immune system modulation. COVID changes the immune system activity and how that change interacts with any specific drug that modulates immune system activity is not understood. We have many parts of the picture but the whole thing is complex. So no-one knew, before testing, whether HCQ's action in late-stage COVID infection, where anti-viral action is likely to be irrelevant, is good or bad. The trial results seem to indicate it is bad.
If HCQ, or HCQ + Zn, or whatever were found to be useful anti-virals you would still have the issue of whether they were not useful because of the later on effects. With a half-life of 22 days if you give it early on it is still there later.
There has been more RCT effort put into HCQ than other stuff. Unfortunately, it is a big shame, it has been fragmented with no concerted international plan and so we would still be better off with more testing of HCQ under different conditions., For example that useful "post-exposure prophylaxis" study should be able to detect anti-viral action, if it exists, much more easily than studies in hospital where the drug is administered at a later stage - after symptoms rather than after exposure.
But there are many other drugs to test and I don't see evidence now to prioritise HCQ, given that many negative trials.
These judgments are difficult. I'm sure you could put forward a case for the reverse since we cannot be sure. I've given up that argument here - in absence of stronger evidence - since there is no point rehashing things. But i will defend the "experts" against all these charges of "not caring" or being "criminal".,
It very easy for those who don't have to make difficult calls to criticise those who do. In the case of the UK study HCQ was prioritised, the dosing regime was specifically chosen to have best chance of working for that large cohort of hospitalised patients. we all agree that does not answer the question of whether HCQ might work when given much earlier. I hope we all agree that drugs which have to be given much earlier to work are less generally useful.
Dilettantes we all are (unless we have doctors or research scientists involved in such trials posting). Worth remembering, as somone above said, that there are no experts in this area. COVID is new, the calls made about what is likely to work are all very uncertain and a matter of judgement.
Some people here say that there are no experts (true) and then that
(1) those making the best guesses they can are criminal if they are wrong (false)
(2) somehow a few internet links posted here make us experts in a way not possible for others (false)
Those conducting trials would be negligent (not I guess criminal) if they made judgments based on gut feeling without detailed study of the literature. If they judge that literature differently from armchair dilettantes here they are maybe wrong, or maybe right. It does not stop them from being good hard-working doctors who care for their patients.
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before others claim "it needs zinc" note that few people are zinc deficient and even if pushing levels up higher helps (unproven) if HCQ and more zinc works, HCQ will also work.
THH you are wrong about zinc deficenccy. It is very common these days, most autoimmune illness is linked to zinc deficenccy also vit D breastfeeding woman, alcohol consumption poor diet and it runs rampant in vegetarians. The signs of zinc deficenccy
Symptoms
unexplained weight loss.
wounds that won't heal.
lack of alertness.
decreased sense of smell and taste.
diarrhea.
loss of appetite.
open sores on the skin.
Notice anything familiar with covid? You really need to do your homework before posting your opinions
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Quote
from the WHO
Using food availability data, it is estimated that zinc deficiency affects about one-third of the world's population, with estimates ranging from 4% to 73% across subregions. Although severe zinc deficiency is rare, mild-to-moderate zinc deficiency is quite common throughout the world (13)
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Estimated fatal dose is 30 to 50 mg chloroquine base/kg.■Hydroxychloroquine: 10 to 20 grams.
Some children here still cannot understand written text given by the official guide of pharmacology. Fatal means lethal. LD50 means 50% will die. And guess there is LD25 that is way lower and all is measured within healthy people not people on ICU that already show the symptoms people dying on Chloroquine will show too.
Ir recommend that you Zeus46 read the guide in all detail and study all symptoms that already occur with 2-4 grams of HCQ before you continue your name calling troll game.
The British HCQ recovery trial doctors simply are killers of the worst kind not yet seen since WWII!
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Wrong... Zeus.. ...Perhaps 'we' can identify Palmer writing with Xray vision.?
Are you denying that the Palmer Foundation is run by/for Clive Palmer?
how did the RECOVERY pharmacist justify such high levels (2400 mg in 1 day) straight up ,in so many patients?
Did you bother to read the paper you choose to comment on Robert?
"However, the 4-aminoquinoline drugs are relatively weak antivirals. Demonstration of therapeutic efficacy of hydroxychloroquine in severe COVID would require rapid attainment of efficacious levels of free drug in the blood and respiratory epithelium. Thus, to provide the greatest chance of providing benefit in life threatening COVID, the dose regimen was designed to result in rapid attainment and maintenance of plasma concentrations that were as high as safely possible. These concentrations were predicted to be at the upper end of those observed during steady state treatment of rheumatoid arthritis with hydroxychloroquine.
Our dosing schedule was based on hydroxychloroquine pharmacokinetic modelling referencing a SARS-CoV-2 half maximal effective concentration (EC50) of 0.72 μM scaled to whole blood concentrations and an assumption that cytosolic concentrations in the respiratory epithelium are in dynamic equilibrium with blood concentrations.
Pharmacokinetic modelling in combination with blood concentration and mortality data from a case series of 302 chloroquine overdose patients predicts that the base equivalent chloroquine regimen to the RECOVERY hydroxychloroquine regimen is safe."
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Im no longer on the hydroxychloroquine bandwagon and not due to any trials as I believe most were setup to fail. The zelenko protocol is set as an outpatient treatment. Trials are all in hospital setting .zelenko starts hydroxychloroquine zinc and azithromycin. 200 mg twice a day for 5 days and 50 mg of zinc once a day and 500 mg of aazithromycin for 5days. Now do any of the trials use this protocol? Oh right the experts know better. Now as for hydroxychloroquine I came across a study from 2002 on a young lady with lupus. It found that extended use of hydroxychloroquine has a negitive effect on vitamin d levels.
In addition, patients with SLE often take hydroxychloroquine, which is known to lower the conversion of vitamin D2 to the more biologically active vitamin D3. It is because of this action that it is used to treat hypercalcaemia in sarcoidosis.[6]
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this trial is one that is setup to succeed, and the results should be released soon
Hydroxychloroquine, vitamins D and C and zinc
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It very easy for those who don't have to make difficult calls to criticise those who do.
If you're thinking that an example of a 'difficult call' is to ban hydroxychloroquine, it's a call they didn't even have to make. So, it's not difficult at all. Unless someone is twisting someone's arm to make it.
Another example of oh so difficult calls is to delete Youtube videos, ban Youtube channels, delete tweets, inactivate Twitter accounts, delete Facebook posts, delete Facebook accounts, censor Instagram posts and so on.
Those poor technocrats having to be put in a position to make such difficult calls!
I hope we all agree that drugs which have to be given much earlier to work are less generally useful.
Examples of "time critical" medications abound! This is not about what is 'generally' useful or not. This should rather be about testing a specific safe and effective protocol for hydroxychloroquine administration. The "Recovery" study of the UK ignored such known protocols and willfully went out of bounds regarding timing, dosage and (avoiding) adjuvants. This is beyond stupid. It should be considered punishable.
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If you're thinking that an example of a 'difficult call' is to ban hydroxychloroquine, it's a call they didn't even have to make.
If you are talking about the FDA then it is a call they had to make. That's their job. That's why we have an FDA. However, as they noted, they have not actually prevented any doctor from using these drugs. See:
https://www.fda.gov/news-event…orization-chloroquine-and
QUOTE:
Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are both FDA-approved to treat or prevent malaria. Hydroxychloroquine is also approved to treat autoimmune conditions such as chronic discoid lupus erythematosus . . . Of note, FDA approved products may be prescribed by physicians for off-label uses if they determine it is appropriate for treating their patients, including during COVID.
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Are you denying that the Palmer Foundation is run by/for Clive Palmer?
Wrong Zeus,
I have not quoted Palmer...or have very much interest in him..
the Zeus 'we' seem to have a thing about Palmer..
On HCQ .
'we' might care to read a bit more about dosing HCQ..with a loading dose
". Yao et al. recommended HCQ 400 mg b.i.d. for the first day, followed by 200 mg b.i.d. for an additional 4 days to treat severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) infection according to physiologically-based pharmacokinetic models [5].
"It was predicted that higher daily doses of HCQ (such as 800 mg b.i.d.) could result in an increased risk of QT prolongation [3
Obvously... the Recovery Pharmacist/researcher didn't read.
I wouldn't sign off on 2400 mg/day..for 1561..patients . even if they were all persuaded to give an uninformed waiver,,
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Marseille: ANSM rejects massive use of hydroxychloroquine requested by Prof. Raoult
"To date, the available data, which are very heterogeneous and uneven, do not allow us to predict a benefit from hydroxychloroquine, alone or in combination, for the treatment or prevention of Covid-19 disease", -
"Two weights, two measures"
Hydroxychloroquine is marketed in France by the Sanofi laboratory under the name Plaquenil, but for other diseases such as rheumatism or certain lupus.
The prescription by a doctor of a drug outside the indications provided for by the marketing authorization (MA) must be done "on a case-by-case basis", informing the patient of the risks incurred and of non-reimbursement, and the mention "non-AMM" must appear on the prescription.
A "double standard", reacted Didier Raoult on Twitter after this refusal, accusing the ANSM of promoting the antiviral Remdesivir (Gilead) to the detriment of hydroxychloroquine.
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Wrong Zeus,
I have not quoted Palmer...or have very much interest in him..
I guess linking to his website isn’t a quotation, technically. But let us not split hairs.
"It was predicted that higher daily doses of HCQ (such as 800 mg b.i.d.) could result in an increased risk of QT prolongation [3
Obvously... the Recovery Pharmacist/researcher didn't read.
I wouldn't sign off on 2400 mg/day..for 1561..patients . even if they were all persuaded to give an uninformed waiver,,
HCQ’s prolongation of QT intervals is not new information, and no doubt the RECOVERY trial monitored the patients’ cardio, as is standard in any clinical trial. They even reported this in their paper, which again, is probably best read, before commenting on it:
“Furthermore the preliminary data presented here did not show any excess in ventricular tachycardia (including torsade de pointes) or ventricular fibrillation in the hydroxychloroquine arm.”
And correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe anyone has ever died of a prolonged QT interval.
Also, do pharmacists ever “sign off” on clinical trial dosing regimes? Isn’t that the job of a doctor? In the UK, it would appear that the pharmacists role in a clinical trial is limited to the storage, dispensing, return and destruction of compounds. Are things any different in NZ? I gather you are rather short of doctors, but surely standards haven’t slipped that much?
Finally, its rather silly to try to make some kind of point about the use of ‘we’ when it was used to refer to a discussion between ‘us’. If I had used the term to denote an imaginary third party - as the Queen does, when she refers to herself and God - then its fair enough to ridicule that, although I gather English may not be your first language, so no harm done.
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If you are talking about the FDA then it is a call they had to make. That's their job. That's why we have an FDA. However, as they noted, they have not actually prevented any doctor from using these drugs. See:
Very true! Technically HCQ is not banned for use in treating Covid, so docs like Zelenko continue to prescribe it. But practically, since there is no longer access to the national stockpile (I'm not sure about individual state stockpiles) of HCQ, and because of the domino effect on medical organizations (like the AMA), hospital groups and pharmaceutical groups, potential widespread use of HCQ for Covid is effectively quashed as doctors fall into line, not wanting the hassle. Mission accomplished.
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According to https://www.worldometers.info, almost 400,000 people have died of seasonal flu so far this year. https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/live-world-death-totals shows 530,000 deaths from seasonal flu. These numbers seem surprisingly high, especially given the measures taken against Covid-19, which is associated with roughly 1,155,000 deaths so far this year. Less than 3 times that of the flu.
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And correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t believe anyone has ever died of a prolonged QT interval.
Drug-Induced QT Prolongation and Sudden Death
google is your friend..Zeus ..in 1 second..
I said " I "
wouldn't sign off on 2400mg/d ...
maybe the Recovery''doctor' researcher should have got
a second opinion from a clinical pharmacist ..or at least consulted the literature
From the Olympian heights of Zeus engineering it is difficult to see how many times the
'doctors' defer to the 21st century clinical pharmacist and how many 'doctor's
errors are politely corrected before they kill the patient...
Thankyou 'we' for not talking about Palmer... nice try at diversion.
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COVEXIT.COM Oct-24
Professor Harvey Risch Interview - Part 1
External Content www.youtube.comContent embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.National Institute of Health (NIH) Recommends Against Early Treatment for COVID-19
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Drug-Induced QT Prolongation and Death
This is deceptive nonsense Robert.
From the abstract:
Prolongation of the QT interval can predispose to a potentially fatal polymorphic ventricular tachycardia called torsades de pointes (TdP). Although usually self-limited, TdP may degenerate into ventricular fibrillation and cause sudden death.
Some medications that cause QT prolongation and possible TdP are commonly used in general practice. This paper presents a case of sudden death that is likely from drug-induced TdP.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20222297/
Which appears to support my point: That no-one ever died of a prolonged QT interval.
So it seems yet another Robert Bryant discussion has degenerated into disingenuity, incoherent wordplay, and ironic claims of diversion.
To be expected, but not encouraged.
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This is deceptive nonsense Robert.
Stop name calling as you like THH both have completely failed to even superficially understand medicine most basics facts like the knowledge about LD50 doses one never should even approach... (remember the mice...)
QT prolongation has been discussed already in countless posts within this thread. If you can add substance then clearly identify what new you have and reference a paper.
Just to give you an example. If it happens while you drive a car it will be deadly in the worst case. In Africa where most people don't drive they simple will have a rest.
how did the RECOVERY pharmacist justify such high levels (2400 mg in 1 day) straight up ,in so many patients?
This would be grounds for litigation in the USA..
I still hope somebody will sue these Mengele apprentices that intentionally killed a large number of defenseless people!
National Institute of Health (NIH) Recommends Against Early Treatment for COVID-19
The same here: If the pandemic is over I hope these guys will be sued too for recommending a friends (Gilead) drug that has not the slightest impact on the health of a CoV-19 sick person and for preventing true medical help!
CONCLUSIONS
These Remdesivir, Hydroxychloroquine, Lopinavir and Interferon regimens appeared to have little or no effect on hospitalized COVID-19, as indicated by overall mortality, initiation of ventilation and duration of hospital stay. The mortality findings contain most of the randomized evidence on Remdesivir and Interferon, and are consistent with meta-analyses of mortality in all major trials. (Funding: WHO. Registration: ISRCTN83971151, NCT04315948)
