Quote from RobertBryant

My 24 yr old daughter rang me in distress two days ago..

chest tightness fever shivering she had had the AZ vaccine 6 hours prior..

I am very sorry that your daughter was distressed.

Those are the classic symptoms of an immune system fever - a very common (20%?) side effect of all the COVID vaccines, also of Flu vaccine.

You would expect it to be worse for the COVID vaccines (and it is worse) because we have no previous immunity (well some minimal T-cell from previous CVs maybe - but young people less likely that. Young people also tend to have more active immune systems). So it is a peril of being young, and worse than other vaccines because the virus is less familiar to our immune systems. Which I guess I don't need to tell you.

Your daughter's symptoms in this case were textbook normal, and as described in the pamphlet everyone gets given (NHS description below, other countries add to this that more than 1 in 10 people experience fever. Given old people tend not to, I'd reckon 1 in 5 of 24 year olds should expect it))

Side effects of the coronavirus vaccines

It’s normal to experience side effects after the vaccine. It shows the vaccine is teaching your body’s immune system how to protect itself from the disease, however not everyone gets them.

Most of these are mild and short term. They may include:

• having a painful, heavy feeling and tenderness in the arm where you had your injection
• headache or muscle ache
• joint pain
• chills
• nausea or vomiting
• feeling tired
• fever (temperature above 37.8°C).

You may also have flu-like symptoms with episodes of shivering and shaking for a day or two.

Fever after the coronavirus vaccine

It’s quite common to develop a fever after a vaccination. This normally happens within 48 hours of the vaccination and usually goes away within 48 hours.

I know many young people (18 - 23) who have had symptomatic COVID. Most are knocked out for a week, worse than Flu, and don't feel great for a few weeks after One (age 22) died. Some will have asymptomatic COVID, but in that case they have minimal immunity and will get it again.

I also know many who have had the vaccine - it knocks some of them out for 24 hours typically.

Up to 48 hours fever - due to the immune system responding - is a price worth paying.

In comparison - the rather less detailed list of Flu vaccine side effects - again from NHS

Flu vaccine side effects

Flu vaccines are very safe. All adult flu vaccines are given by injection into the muscle of the upper arm.

Most side effects are mild and only last for a day or so, such as:

• slightly raised temperature
• muscle aches
• sore arm where the needle went in – this is more likely to happen with the vaccine for people aged 65 and over

Try these tips to help reduce the discomfort:

• continue to move your arm regularly
• take a painkiller, such as paracetamol or ibuprofen – some people, including those who are pregnant, should not take ibuprofen unless a doctor recommends it

THH

Quote from JedRothwell

All the mass media articles I have seen recommend getting a vaccine even if you have had COVID already.

Looks like you trust mass media more than science...An infection protects you factors better than any vaccine today! But also here this is the average not the total 100%. People at risk with a high initial viral load have a fair chance to die in both cases. Just some 10x more with a vaccine + infection than from a re-infection.

Vaccine + infection is the gold solution. My brother just took it (CoV-19) on top of his vaccine.

If you know how to prepare and have the treatment drugs ready then there is no reason to risk a RNA gen therapy.

If you had Pfizer then delta will kill you the same way as somebody with no gen therapy if the treatment is 8 months back. And if you take a Pfizer booster some other virus will go to kill you with a high probability.

So best: After RNA gen therapy try to get CoV-19 before your protection is low. Low starts after 4-5 months. So Jane has been lucky he got a natural booster! And is safe for the next 10 years. Exception: High initial load!

Quote from THHuxleynew

Flu vaccines are very safe.

I took it once to protect my daughter. The reaction was worse that from the strongest flue of the last 60 years.

I certainly had an ADE effect and on top started some GBS.

So the worst side effect from the flu vaccine is GBS - but also from the flue...The only urgent cure is 2 weeks doxycycline.

No vaccine is safe. Not even eating a tomato... (from Spain..)

Quote from Fm1

German Researcher Concerned about Number of COVID-19 Associated Vaccine Deaths and AE in EMA Database

https://trialsitenews.com/germ…s-and-ae-in-ema-database/

Recently, a German researcher investigated, reviewed, and analyzed spontaneously reported fatalities and adverse events associated with COVID-19 vaccines in Europe. Conducted by Dresden-based Karla J Lehmann, this analysis probed the number of recorded adverse events and fatalities. It assessed the cardiovascular adverse events up to a specified data in European countries. The study inquired into the EudraVigilance web reports originating from the European Medicines Agency (EMA) and some data from the German PEI safety system. Ms. Lehmann emphasized an “alarming” rate of COVID-19 vaccine-associated suspected side effects as well as potential deaths. The German researcher also pointed out large volumes of cardiovascular reactions associated with the databases—in many cases of a life-threatening nature. For example, what she refers to as cardiac and heart circulatory triggered deaths represented nearly a third of vaccine-related deaths associated with the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine called Comirnaty.

The subject of COVID-19 vaccine-associated adverse events and deaths is most certainly controversial, and this recent study uploaded to preprint is no exception. She notes that in the past, with other vaccines, the level of fatalities or cardiovascular events associated with vaccines were uncommon. While few researchers delve into this controversial subject, possibly due to intense societal pressure to accept the dominant risk-reward narrative in much of the developed world, Lehmann takes the plunge, undoubtedly making herself controversial in the process.

Not Recognized Thus Far

Ms. Lehmann reminds the reader that, to date, many sizable numbers of cardiovascular adverse events and deaths aren’t accepted as necessarily causally linked, and many are overwhelmingly justified by the risks of not executing the mass vaccination program.

One exception, of course, has been for vascular and thrombotic as well as embolic side effects, which can lead to serious consequences. Lehmann declared that in these cases, “the mechanism of action suggests that downregulation of ACE2 by non-neutralized spike proteins may have cardiovascular effects.”

Vascular thrombotic/embolic events represent the second most prominent side effects associated with the COVID-19 vaccines. The scholar suggests that to better understand why sinus vein thrombosis and other thrombotic/embolic events are associated with AstraZeneca’s Oxford vaccine known as Vaxzervia. The author suggests that cardiovascular side effects are of real concern. Yet, systematic and rigorous study shows limitations associated with the nature of how these reports are filed, the lack of adequate recording procedure, and the lack of specific case information or ability to compare to a select population.

Discussion

First, Lehmann notes that the “EudraVigilance database is more comprehensive and differentiated compared to the German safety reports. Those vaccinated were predominantly between the ages of 18-64 years (66-81.6%). Among them, 67%-74% were women and 24%-31% men.”

She reports 525,907 total cases (about 0.2% of all vaccinations by June 5, 2021) for all vaccines and any side effects. In a table, the German author reports that 13,867 fatalities (2.64%) were recorded. Put another way, on average, “1.1 % of vaccinated persons with ADRs in Germany and 2.64T% of Europeans died in connection with ADRs.” Lehmann found that this high number represents an anomaly for any vaccine product.

Lehmann shares an average annual rate in Germany totaling 3.8 reports/day and 0.028 deaths per day for adults. The report declares, “There was a 50-133 fold increase in reported side effects in temporal relation to COVID-19 vaccinations and a 187-200 fold increase in vaccine ADR -related fatalities.”

The German author concluded that “The quantity and quality of the analyzed general side effects of COVID-19 vaccines and the specific cardiovascular side effects of Comirnaty and Vaxzervia are a matter of concern.”

Lead Research/Investigator

Karla J Lehmann

Ms. Lehmann is a specialist in pharmacology and toxicology, an author of 55 scientific publications and manual contributions, as well as numerous lectures, drug reports for initial and post-registration as well as for Periodic Safety Update Reports (PSUR).

Call to Action: TrialSite provides a link to the study.

https://osf.io/gh9u2/

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I think I should just comment on these vigilant-style researchers discovering something surprising in the "report everything" databases by number only for the most popular errors:

1. noted large number of AEs - did not compare with expected background AE

2. noted large number of AEs / vaccination - compared with non-COVID vaccine AEs or previous year AEs. Thinks larger number of COVID vaccine AEs => COVID vaccines cause more AEs

This one suffers 1. (Does not even do the more subtle 2.)

COVID vaccines are known to be new and health professionals are told to report anything (which they would not do for a more established vaccine). The public also know this is a new vaccine and are more likely to report any AE.

Therefore we expect:

• Lots of AEs due to natural AEs not caused by vaccination
• Relatively more AEs than for young childhood vaccines because the natural background of AEs (heart attacks, strokes, etc) goes up exponentially with age
• Relatively more AEs (for given age demographics) than established vaccines because everything will get reported

The EU (and other) regulators sift through these reports to see whether there is anything above background and they note this - even if it is only suspected. these reports on vaccine safety are very detailed.

The difference between their work and this anti-vax oh my god I've discovered a side effect stuff is that they do a careful comparison with background rates.

One sign of a good scholar is paying attention to related work, understanding it, and building on it. otherwise you re-invent the wheel - and usually do it badly - as here.

THH

Quote from Wyttenbach

I took it once to protect my daughter. The reaction was worse that from the strongest flue of the last 60 years.

Another self-evident false statement. You are alive.

Quote from Wyttenbach

An infection protects you factors better than any vaccine today!

Not evidenced. And it is a question I'm interested in and would like to find evidence on.

It is really not clear whether vaccines or infection protect you better in general. It depends who you are, how bad was the infection, how recently you were vaccinated, which vaccine. It also depends on whether the infection was with an old variant or the current (delta) variant.

What is clear is that vaccination adds protection to whatever you would have just from infection, and that infection alone - especially mild infection - is not great protection.

New research topic

PTSD as cause of antivax sentiment.

Maybe many cases of hardened antivax sentiment derive from an early unpleasant experience of vaccine side effects combined with hypochondria - and lack of reassurance from a doctor. that could be eitehr because one was not available or the person was inclined not to trust anything any professional said (as is often the case for hypochondriacs).

Quote from THHuxleynew

Not evidenced.

Here we linked half a dozen of papers showing that an infection (in average) protects better than a vaccination.

One reason was the much broader immune memory. The other gen therapy antibodies do not match for delta.

Bad things happen due to this already seen in UK/Israel data. ADE leads to a bout 5x higher risk for hospitalization if you get a strong infection after the gen therapy. This is subtle not 5x more people get a strong reaction. Just the subset with the strong reaction fares 5x worse...

May be to much for simple minded doctors.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Another self-evident false statement.

You should once take a basic class in logic! A statement cannot be false. A statement is a proposition. You have to add an other one to show it's false. I had the Hongkong flue just two days. The vaccination was worse three days...So now you have the second statement.

But this is just my single case.

Only a few doctors know the connection between flu/flu vaccine and GBS. Often the symptoms are delayed by months.

The vaccine mafia rhetoric:

Mass. Has 3,098 New Breakthrough Cases, 7 More COVID Deaths Among Vaccinated

Massachusetts health officials on Tuesday reported nearly 3,100 new breakthrough cases over the past week and seven more deaths. In the last week, 3,098 new…

www.nbcboston.com

In the last week, 3,098 new breakthrough cases -- infections in people who have been vaccinated -- were reported, with 75 more people hospitalized, Massachusetts Department of Public Health....

Both figures remain a tiny percentage of the total number of all people who have been vaccinated --

LOL! What counts is how many in relation to all cases did happen! So last week they had about 8400 cases. So 36% of all cases are from vaccinated. This will go up as in Israel where it was 80%. Death rate (CFR) among vaccinated 0.85%.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-covid-vaccine-uk-cases-deaths-delta-variant/

Two-thirds of under-50s who died with delta variant were unvaccinated ???!!!!!

What???

So vaccines protect just 50% or a factor 2....

Vaccines are less protective against Delta infection but still reduce risk by two-thirds, CDC study shows

Vaccine effectiveness against Covid-19 infection dropped from 91% to 66% once the Delta variant accounted for the majority of circulating virus, according to a…

edition.cnn.com

USA still lags behind :

Vaccine effectiveness against Covid-19 infection dropped from 91% to 66% once the Delta variant accounted for the majority of circulating virus, according to a study published Tuesday by the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

OK study has been done some weeks ago....

The trend is clear. Studies with old (2 months lag) data are use to promote vaccines/ gen therapy, where the actual UK/Israel data shows vaccines make more or less no difference at all.

Quote from THHuxleynew

What is clear is that vaccination adds protection to whatever you would have just from infection, and that infection alone - especially mild infection - is not great protection.

Yes. As described in the heartbreaking article I posted above, about Bill Phillips. He had a mild case last year . . . no vaccine, and another case this year that almost killed him. He is still stuck in a wheelchair and has trouble talking.

Let this be a warning to you! Get vaccinated, even if you were infected earlier. You may have acquired immunity, but why not beef it up with vaccinated immunity? What harm? Suspenders and a belt -- as engineers say.

They say a vaccine can also sometimes help relieve long haul symptoms.

Might as well post the link again:

Fitness coach on oxygen, using wheelchair after 2-month COVID-19 battle

He and his wife hope their painful memories will encourage others to get the vaccine.

www.kktv.com

Quote from THHuxleynew

Long-term - think of it like Flu. You don't need to get vaccinated each year, but if you don't you are much more likely to die of it. Even if you have had Flu before, immunity wanes. Like COVID, the risk goes up with age but is never zero which is why the US vaccinates children. The UK, always more stingy with medical treatment, does not do this on the NHS till you are 50.

The UK has been giving flu vaccinations to primary school children for several years, starting from the youngest and expanding the program up in age over the years (like it has expanded the program down to over 50s). My spawn has had 4 IIRC, but is now about to start Secondary where currently they don't....have to see if they expand again to cover. Never had an adverse reaction but that's just anecdotal.

Quote from Wyttenbach

Here we linked half a dozen of papers showing that an infection (in average) protects better than a vaccination.

One reason was the much broader immune memory. The other gen therapy antibodies do not match for delta.

No. You really did not.

I agree about broader immune memory (said it before you) but that was not the question.

Quote from Nar

The UK has been giving flu vaccinations to primary school children for several years, starting from the youngest and expanding the program up in age over the years (like it has expanded the program down to over 50s). My spawn has had 4 IIRC, but is now about to start Secondary where currently they don't....have to see if they expand again to cover. Never had an adverse reaction but that's just anecdotal.

I never knew that! I guess Flu must be riskier for younger people, as well as older.

Quote from Wyttenbach

What counts is how many in relation to all cases did happen!

Not exactly - this is the mistake you have repeated several 100 times here.

What counts is the ratio: (infected-vax / number-vax) / (infected-non-vax / number-non-vax)

Otherwise the higher a country's vaccination rate, the worse you think the vaccine performs.

Quote from THHuxleynew

I never knew that! I guess Flu must be riskier for younger people, as well as older.

See https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/…ations/child-flu-vaccine/ ....its a nasal spray so secure from Mr. Gates' dastardly schemes.

Quote from Wyttenbach

You should once take a basic class in logic! A statement cannot be false. A statement is a proposition. You have to add an other one to show it's false.

I'm really grateful to you for being so honest here!

That exactly explains your continued repeating of false statements - you believe what you say in any one post can only be judged true or false based on what you say in that post without context.

For example: most people would think that the statement: the moon is made of white cheese would be false, based on knowledge about the real world, solar system formation, Apollo program, etc.

You however, view that statement as neither true nor false.

Extending this to the topic at hand - any real-world facts about COVID, vaccines, etc can be ignored by you unless you actually mention them in an argument you are making.

It does explain a lot.

Quote from Wyttenbach

The trend is clear. Studies with old (2 months lag) data are use to promote vaccines/ gen therapy, where the actual UK/Israel data shows vaccines make more or less no difference at all.

I think here you are confusing efficacy with protection against severe disease.

Both go down over time but protection against severe disease starts very high and is still good in Israel - or else they would have many more deaths.

There is this idea of nose-COVID where the protection in nasal passages is less strong than in the bloodstream.

Anyway, the actual UK data is easy to evaluate now because infections have been roughly stable for 4 weeks: 30,000 cases, 100 deaths. That is a CFR of 0.3% Compare with 25,000 and 500 (second wave November flattish peak) which is CFR of 2%.

A 7X smaller risk of mortality is not more or less no difference at all. Those figure are very approximate - I would need to look up the ONS infection survey to get IFR estimates and then there are still some issues about the data, but I chose times when cases were flat, and testing was good.

Those are figures for the whole UK population - not just the completely vaccinated. Anti-vaxer (or COVID-specific anti-vaxer) victims form a significant part of the deaths so the numbers for vaccine protection are a bit higher.

THH

Quote from Wyttenbach

Bad things happen due to this already seen in UK/Israel data. ADE leads to a bout 5x higher risk for hospitalization if you get a strong infection after the gen therapy. This is subtle not 5x more people get a strong reaction. Just the subset with the strong reaction fares 5x worse...

Since, as you point out, the number of affected people must be small enough not to change the overall figures much (they are good) this is certainly subtle.

More to the point, it is not evidenced, There is some ADE effect, in the sense that RBD-enhancement antibodies found after natural infection have been shown to enhance RBD operation in molecular simulations. Three things are not known:

• Is that effect clinically significant (do those antibodies in practice make any difference)?
• Is it responsible for the slightly higher death/hospital ratio seen with delta COVID?
• Do the current vaccines generate these specific antibodies (I might be wrong, and this is known)?

I'm quite willing to believe that this slightly higher ratio applies only to those vaccinated - but I do not even have evidence of that. If it does, then there could be a number of reasons, for example that fewer vaccinated people end up in hospital, so that only the (genetically/immune system dependent) more serious cases do that.

Anti-vax memes work by taking tiny fragments of truth, as here, and expanding them into lies. The science is very complex and it is easy to find things like ADE that were anticipated as a problem but have not been, and suggest that they now are a problem. Well, that might be true - though if so it is not a problem that prevents vaccine's protecting people from delta. Or it might be false.

Note the inconsistency. Anti-vaxers will claim scientific uncertainty (which must exist, though it is very small) about possible vaccine long-term side effects as a reason to avoid the vaccine. While also claiming certainty that ADE is a big problem for the vaccines, when there is no certainty, and it is not a big problem.

No-one views the current COVID vaccines as being a long-term fix. Everyone said they would have a limited shelf-life against immune-evading variants - and no-one knew how long that would be. We still don't. We will have new vaccines - and also better treatments - quite soon - so it looks as though for those lucky enough to have access they will do their job well enough.

Pfizer and Moderna have said they are ready to make a new delta-specific vaccines. No-one wants them yet.

I am the first to agree that current vaccines, focussing immunity on the RBD proteins, do not have as broad a response as natural immunity. And that there are things to watch out for, like ADE. So what, when they work better than anyone hoped, and when added to natural immunity work even better?

THH

Quote from THHuxleynew

No. You really did not.

As said test your Alzheimer. But as a FUD'er you have to deny all evidence that undermines your fake facts.

Go back and read / check all the paper FM1 & I linked so far. OH sorry FM1 & myself did link any papers...(Alzheimer..)

Quote from THHuxleynew

What counts is the ratio:

No. This was in old time: Today only severity counts, Germany &Switzerland no longer look at cases. Bad news for the vaccine mafia as vaccinated have more severe cases....

Quote from THHuxleynew

Extending this to the topic at hand - any real-world facts about COVID, vaccines, etc can be ignored by you unless you actually mention them in an argument you are making.

This is exactly what you do. You deny the reality of Uttar Pradesh and ivermectin because you believe in fake facts constructed by your buddies... Poor live as spin doctor...

The Pfizer gen therapy does obviously not work. See Israel === Facts! So why should people believe in your famous "vaccines" when at least one of them totally fails and also UK now shows a best case protection of 50% from death???

So You believe in vaccine fake facts.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Anti-vax memes work by taking tiny fragments of truth, as here, and expanding them into lies.

Vaccine terrorist memes start with fake studies like Pfizer phase III, or Oxford HCQ killer doctors for fake disprove of a useful drug.

Proven facts:

CoV-19 gen therapy does not protect you from CoV-19 delta.

The vaccine does not give you a sterile immunity.

CoV-19 gen therapy does not induce a stable immune memory

Boosters do only increase the AB count

"Vaccinated" are ideal CoV-19 super spreaders (happy green pass!)

"Vaccinated" have more severe CoV-19 cases due to ADE.

Best case: The gen therapy gives you - in average - about a 6-12 month break from a severe infection.

At the cost of immune deficiency (ACE-2 block)

The ADE risk Increases at least 3x with each booster and new virus variant.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Not evidenced. And it is a question I'm interested in and would like to find evidence on.

It is really not clear whether vaccines or infection protect you better in general. It depends who you are, how bad was the infection, how recently you were vaccinated, which vaccine. It also depends on whether the infection was with an old variant or the current (delta) variant.

What is clear is that vaccination adds protection to whatever you would have just from infection, and that infection alone - especially mild infection - is not great protection.

I'm not sure I agree, 1- reinfection seems to be much more rare than vaccine breakthrough and natural immunity provides a certain antibody S2H97 that vaccination does not. I posted the study a few weeks back but as usual it was a treatment and you probably didn't care as it didn't involve vaccination

This ‘super antibody’ for COVID fights off multiple coronaviruses

An newly identified immune molecule raises hopes for a vaccine against a range of viruses related to SARS-CoV-2.

www.nature.com