Quote from Wyttenbach

This guy is a joke!

We know that SARS-COV-2 cannot infect bats and not even pangolins and that the genetic distance (>800 amino acides) is about 30 years (straight line) to the nearest natural virus. But under real conditions these 30 years are a once in a universe live-time chance as all selections (must survive and pass) among 4800 possible changes must happen the right way....

Not to mention that recent computer modelling shows that the original spike RBD has much more affinity to human ACE2 than to any other species tested. Pangolins came a distant second. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-92388-5

Quote from THHuxleynew

FLCCC was founded by Kory and Paul Marik. Marik has past history at publicising miracle cures that don't make sense but are followed by many until proved dud.

Paul E. Marik - Wikipedia

THH resorts to the trusted Wiki.

Also I'm a little hurt that he left me off the anti-vax list.

For people actually interested in Drs Marik and Kory and the ascendency of ivermectin for treating covid, the following article by Michael Capuzzo I find to be wonderfully well written, informative and much worth the long read.

The Drug that Cracked COVID | Mountain Home Magazine

In this Buffalo hospital room, a grandmother led the global fight for the drug that would ave her life and end the pandemic.

www.mountainhomemag.com

Another account, this time from an HHS whistleblower, telling that her hospital has not been reporting vaccine injury to VAERS. Less than a minute of video :

Quote from Seatrout

You mean the fake science mafia getting a payday disinformation killing people.

It is a lot of work - in detail - line by line - pointing out why the anti-vaxer stuff is wrong. I could just point to fact checkers etc. But I don't.

It would be even more work for you to show that fake science mafia is killing people. No-one on that side of the argument (not that it is really an argument) has even got close to that.

It is fine to argue:

• some pharma companies are mercenary, and making a lot of money out of vaccines
• vaccines can kill people
• the covid vaccines are riskier than normal vaccines
• covid has a low IFR (0.15 in low-age countries)
• maybe overall lockdowns were a bad idea
• all govt advice is slanted politically
• the vaccines have no direct health benefits for under-9s
• natural immunity (once you have it) is better than vaccine immunity

Those are all justifiable, or at least arguable (the one about natural immunity is very arguable - we really do not know because of too little data on delta infection immunity against delta. It is likley that it wanes fairly quickly but possibly less quickly than vaccine. When it has waned - and the vaccine immunity has wand - there will be some residual immunity in both cases. We don't know how they compare).

What is not justifiable, or arguable, is:

• pharma companies have falsified data on covid vaccines in a significant way
• at any age with regulatory approval in UK or US, vaccines are killing more people than they save
• vaccine myocarditis is comparable in its severity to COVID myocarditis
• without vaccine covid IFR in UK or US would be < 0.5%
• people under 30 are safe from covid (the age-IFR curve is well-know)
• delta is less severe than alpha or original covid
• natural immunity is better than vaccine immunity, and therefore everyone is better off without the vaccine
• natural + vaccine immunity is no better than natural immunity on its own (known to be false)

And I have posted detailed papers, refuted contrary claims, for these cases.

Those who argue the second set of stuff, as far as I can see cause vaccine hesitancy amongst people who therefore are more likely to die. Fact.

Quote from Mark U

Another account, this time from an HHS whistleblower, telling that her hospital has not been reporting vaccine injury to VAERS. Less than a minute of video :

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Do you ever wonder why all these anti-vax anecdotes are packaged in super-nice videos - whereas the boring mainstream science and fact checks is all written text...

Quote from Mark U

Also I'm a little hurt that he left me off the anti-vax list.

Corrected.

... and mark U here is spreading known disinformation which if believed will kill people.

Estimates of pandemic excess mortality in India based on civil registration data

Preprint

central estimate: 3.8M
optimistic estimate: 2.8M
pessimistic estimate: 5.2M

The estimates, extrapolated from data from 12 states, put India's pandemic mortality at between 7 and 13 times the official death toll. They align broadly with estimates from several other groups, e.g.:

Three New Estimates of India’s All-Cause Excess Mortality during the COVID-19 Pandemic

India lacks an authoritative estimate of the death toll from the COVID-19 pandemic. We report excess mortality estimates from three different data sources from…

www.cgdev.org

The excess deaths are clearly pandemic deaths, rising and falling with the different waves of COVID-19. The numbers are broadly in the range expected from COVID-19 fatality rates and the level of spread of disease in India.

Quote from Mark U

For people actually interested in Drs Marik and Kory and the ascendency of ivermectin for treating covid

Precisely. If you are a believer (that ascendency bit) you will believe the propaganda. In a video. if you are open minded you will:

• Start by looking at all the meta-analyses
• Look at why Bryant et al, Hill were positive
• Look at why Hill was withdrawn, Bryant et all was not
• Look at precisely why Bryant et al is positive
• Look at the details of what things are positive and why in Bryant et al
• Look at how things swing as the more recent high quality evidence comes in

If you bother to do that, you don't get ivermectin ascendancy. But you do find yourself able to think, rather than indoctrinated with anecdotes and disinformation in a video.

The fact that you and otehrs here are posting videos rather than arguing details of meta-analyses says it all.

Quote from Mark U

THH resorts to the trusted Wiki.

No idea what you have against it? I guess though you have enough contra-factual beliefs that you need to believe it corrupt or something.

That previous widely adopted but (it turns out) no good treatment protocol:

In 2017 a paper was published asserting that intravenous vitamin C given to patients with sepsis was literally a life saver. Despite the study only looking at 47 subjects the results garnered international coverage and was adopted in many ICUs worldwide.

The global burden of sepsis is estimated at up to 19 million cases annually killing 5 million mainly in low income countries. The infection affects 1.7 million Americans a year and kills more than 250,000, making it one of the top 10 causes of death. In Australia more than 5,000 die from sepsis each year and it contributes to up to a half of all hospital deaths.

A paper published today in the Journal of the American Medical Association by Monash researchers comprehensively quashes the idea that the vitamin C-based cocktail has any positive impact on patients with sepsis.

Sepsis is the body's overreaction to a severe infection, leading to multiple organ failure and, frequently, death.

Over the years, there has been indications that vitamin C might be effective against sepsis. For instance, people with sepsis tend to have surprisingly low levels of vitamin C in their blood. In 2014, Dr. Alpha Fowler published a paper involving just 24 patients, hinting that vitamin C was a benefit. In particular, Fowler noted that a measure of organ failure improved far more in the patients who had received vitamin C.

Dr. Paul Marik at the Eastern Virginia Medical School in the US, after reading the study, gave a seriously ill patient with sepsis high dose intravenous Vitamin C, together with thiamine and steroids (the traditional treatment for sepsis) and the patient recovered. Dr Marik started using it regularly in his intensive care unit, reporting that the mortality rate for sepsis in his ICU had plummeted after he switched to this treatment.

What became known as the "Marik protocol" has been adopted by many units worldwide.

In today's JAMA publication a study led by Professor Rinaldo Bellomo, from Monash University and Co-Director of the Australian and New Zealand Intensive Care Research Centre (ANZIC-RC), refutes the idea that the combination of high dose intravenous vitamin C, thiamine (vitamin B1) and hydrocortisone is beneficial in the treatment of sepsis.

The study (the VITAMINS trial) was set up by the ANZIC-RC across ten intensive care units in Australia, New Zealand and Brazil, looking at 216 patients in septic shock between May, 2018 and July, 2019.

216 patients were randomised to either the intervention group (thus receiving intravenous vitamin C, hydrocortisone and thiamine) or the control group (thus receiving hydrocortisone - a steroid - only).

The study found no improvement in the duration of support with blood pressure drugs for the treatment of shock or survival of those receiving vitamin C + thiamine + steroid therapy compared to steroid therapy alone.

According to Professor Bellomo, the study provides high quality evidence that, in patients with septic shock, the combination of high dose intravenous vitamin C, thiamine and hydrocortisone is not superior to usual care with hydrocortisone alone:

"The findings of the VITAMINS trials are clear: in patients with septic shock from Australia, New Zealand and Brazil there was no signal of benefit with the high dose vitamin C, thiamine and hydrocortisone cocktail. The search for treatments that might improve the outcome of these very sick patients must now focus on other interventions"

It is a bit like ivermectin. We do not know for sure that protocol does not work a bit - 216 patients is too little to be precise. But it is a lot better than the original evidence on only 46 patients which was clearly biassed (probably not fraudulent - bias is easy to get from doctors who think strict care about protocols is not necessary, or who know their gut feeling is right).

And before Mark u etc argue that everyone except FLCC is biassed here is the (interested, positive) reaction to that protocol that led to several studies being set up to test it:

NPR Cookie Consent and Choices

Quote from THHuxleynew

It is a lot of work - in detail - line by line - pointing out why the anti-vaxer stuff is wrong. I could just point to fact checkers etc. But I don't.

It would be even more work for you to show that fake science mafia is killing people. No-one on that side of the argument (not that it is really an argument) has even got close to that.

It is fine to argue:

• some pharma companies are mercenary, and making a lot of money out of vaccines
• vaccines can kill people
• the covid vaccines are riskier than normal vaccines
• covid has a low IFR (0.15 in low-age countries)
• maybe overall lockdowns were a bad idea
• all govt advice is slanted politically
• the vaccines have no direct health benefits for under-9s
• natural immunity (once you have it) is better than vaccine immunity

Those are all justifiable, or at least arguable (the one about natural immunity is very arguable - we really do not know because of too little data on delta infection immunity against delta. It is likley that it wanes fairly quickly but possibly less quickly than vaccine. When it has waned - and the vaccine immunity has wand - there will be some residual immunity in both cases. We don't know how they compare).

What is not justifiable, or arguable, is:

• pharma companies have falsified data on covid vaccines in a significant way
• at any age with regulatory approval in UK or US, vaccines are killing more people than they save
• vaccine myocarditis is comparable in its severity to COVID myocarditis
• without vaccine covid IFR in UK or US would be < 0.5%
• people under 30 are safe from covid (the age-IFR curve is well-know)
• delta is less severe than alpha or original covid
• natural immunity is better than vaccine immunity, and therefore everyone is better off without the vaccine
• natural + vaccine immunity is no better than natural immunity on its own (known to be false)

And I have posted detailed papers, refuted contrary claims, for these cases.

Those who argue the second set of stuff, as far as I can see cause vaccine hesitancy amongst people who therefore are more likely to die. Fact.

Display More

they get the money from the corrupt government tell everyone its free thinking we are not paying for everything with tax money-, stock market pyramid schemes ect.

this whole thing is getting old.

I don't of course expect to change the view of Mark U, W, navid, etc.

If you believe that most experts are part of a conspiracy to hide the truth, but do not have the expertise yourself to evaluate claims, there is no possible way you can accept disproof of your views. Those doing this must be expert (or you would not believe them) and therefore are part of the conspiracy.

To be fair I only have proof positive that navid does not have enough expertise. He made an elementary stats mistake and when this was pointed out went in to a long thing about how there was analytic and synthetic thinking, and being good at analysis is not enough.

Mark U has not been willing to deal with the details here. Happy if he does though.

Quote from Seatrout

hey get the money from the corrupt government tell everyone its free thinking we are not paying for everything with tax money

I am sympathetic to the woes of the US. And other countries no doubt have issues. that is capitalism for you - it is imperfect.

But what does that to do with disbelieving scientists who do a de cent job, independently, of reading the research?

Quote from THHuxleynew

That previous widely adopted but (it turns out) no good treatment protocol:

Study quashes controversial vitamin C treatment for sepsis with global trial A paper published today in the Journal of the American Medical Association by Monash researchers comprehensively quashes the idea that the vitamin C-based… http://www.eurekalert.org

Why not read Marik's response to that 'study'. Another instance where early treatment is critical, and yet not employed.

"Ethically and morally unacceptable": Reaction to vitamin C for sepsis trial

A recent study claiming to disprove the 'Marik protocol' as an effective treatment for sepsis has been slammed by Professor Marik who says the study was…

www.nutraingredients.com

Quote from THHuxleynew

Precisely. If you are a believer (that ascendency bit) you will believe the propaganda. In a video.

It was an article, it was not a video! Hello?

Quote from Mark U

Why not read Marik's response to that 'study'. Another instance where early treatment is critical, and yet not employed.

Why do you believe Marik, rather than the independent evidence?

Doctors have been passionately advocating their own (not real) cures through history. It regularly happens. Why is Marik an exception to the rule?

I have read it, although https://www.nutraingredients.com/ is not my fave source of impartial info

Do you not recognise a set of excuses when you read one? And the idea (read MY link - quite neutral) that the people doing these studies wanted to fail, or were incompetent, is much less plausible than the idea that Marik, like many, has fixed ideas that no evidence will change.

Ring any bells for you?

Quote from THHuxleynew

I am sympathetic to the woes of the US. And other countries no doubt have issues. that is capitalism for you - it is imperfect.

But what does that to do with disbelieving scientists who do a de cent job, independently, of reading the research?

most research supplied is handed out- the mix of disinformation like a helicopter on mars. no way to disprove it even when its bullshit.

I despice, movies in discussions. Texts means I can go through the argument and analyze everything. Also I'm stupid

and need time to digest things. Also most videos usually play with emotions and do nasty tricks and I do not like being fooled.

I'm terrified of the impact on people movies has and I'm certain that if Goebels owned youtoub 1925 we all would live in a nazi

terror state today.

Here I think it's fine though as the discussion is mostly in text and texts show up usually that analyzes and critiques the movies.

Quote from THHuxleynew

I could just point to fact checkers etc.

Did you ever do something else ?!

Quote from AlainCo

Estimates of pandemic excess mortality in India based on civil registration data

The IFR used 0.25..0.5 is way to high as the population is much younger than in other countries. A few exception are states like Delhi. The folks also miss that 9 out of 10 delta infection are not detected as the carrier has no or just faint symptoms.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Start by looking at all the meta-analyses

Meta analysis are here to show trends. Such analysis can be done after some years of using a drug.

The hardest prove is evidence as with this you cannot cheat. Either it works or not.

The evidence of Ivermectin has been shown by some 100mio doses given to teh India population.

The evidence also shows that UK double vaccinated age class 4..80 get more often CoV-19 than unvaccinated or single vaccinated...

This data you cannot cheat. No selection bias possible.

Quote from Alan Smith

The amount the UK government has to spend on state pensions will fall by £1.5bn by 2022, partly because of over-65s dying of Covid, forecasts suggest.

This is the main reason a do not engage in political actions against the fascist orders. These dumb guys kill themselves with or without vaccine!