Covid-19 News

    Quote from Nar

    Ivermectin: How false science created a Covid 'miracle' drug

    > Dr Patricia Garcia, a public health expert in Peru, said at one stage she estimated that 14 out of every 15 patients she saw in hospital had been taking ivermectin and by the time they came in they were "really, really sick".

    Of course, this could be the same misinterpretation as for vax breakthrough cases. IVM has never been claimed as 100% effective (20-90% CI?) ... so if the majority in a region have been taking it, then the majority who get sick will be too.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    I think that is what many complain about. Antivaxxers, many of them, get vaccinated and then spend their time trying to persuade gullible other people not to get vaccinated.

    Pro vaxxers that notice there could be a problem start to spread anti antivaxx propaganda to convince themselves to be right.

    Do you agree that all your initial assumptions about the gene therapy that you, wrongly, call vaccines a wrong?


    1) Vaccines do not (= 0 or even less) protect from a CoV-19 infection.

    2) Some vaccines (Pfizer/Oxford crap) already do only marginally protect from CoV-19 death. See Swiss/Israel data un-fudged.

    3) Vaccines are safe except for 500 victims/million and 15-25 deaths.

    4) Boosters fail as these induce high numbers of CoV-19 infections (6 deaths/day in Israel)

    5) vaccines do not stop the pandemic or make it worse due to escape mutation promotion.

    6) The only country that stopped CoV-19 was India that used proper treatment!

    Quote from Alan Fletcher

    > Dr Patricia Garcia, a public health expert in Peru, said at one stage she estimated that 14 out of every 15 patients she saw in hospital had been taking ivermectin and by the time they came in they were "really, really sick".

    Of course, this could be the same misinterpretation as for vax breakthrough cases. IVM has never been claimed as 100% effective (20-90% CI?) ... so if the majority in a region have been taking it, then the majority who get sick will be too.

    Yes, the only way to get decent evidence is RCTs.


    Advocates of ivermectin will always say a failing RCT did not have precisely the right protocol one way or another. But, if ivermectin worked as much as claimed, it would generate noticeable success from most protocols.


    In any case ivermectin advocates don't say; it will not work at all unless you do A,B,C,D. They bring that out only to explain failures. there can always be another excuse for failures (e.g. delta).


    For me the big initial negative is those in Vitro anti-viral action results. They were taken as positive but due to concentration needed were actually very negative. Not any way conclusive because not completely comparable with human infection, but still...


    It is still always possible ivermectin has some benefit, maybe some action other than antiviral, or maybe something unexpected.


    It is not doing a good job of demonstrating that!

    Quote from Alan Fletcher

    Dr Patricia Garcia, a public health expert in Peru, said at one stage she estimated that 14 out of every 15 patients she saw in hospital had been taking ivermectin and by the time they came in they were "really, really sick".

    May be she can smell it...


    Its all a question when you take it and what you add to it. In a high viral load situation and you are just a contact you must start to take it before the PCR test!!! Further in late stage you must take 4..6x dose for some days and this only works out for people that know how to do it.


    I think the reality is:: People that did not take it do not even make it to the hospital...

    Quote from stefan

    . Also I tried to find good discussions (both sides) of the work by not a crackpot but he seam to be ignored, looks like it is true that this guy is hated by both vaccers and anti vaccers. And men in powers.

    From Wiki::

    Gøtzsche, who had been elected to the Governing Board in 2017,[31] was expelled from the Board and the organization after a 6 to 5 vote of the 13-member board at the annual meeting in Edinburgh, Scotland in September 2018.[32] The Board announced the step on September 26 expelling Gøtzsche because of an "ongoing, consistent pattern of disruptive and inappropriate behaviours ..., taking place over a number of years, which undermined this culture and were detrimental to the charity’s work, reputation and members.


    Now we know the year (2017) when the FM/R/X/B mafia took over one of the last independent think tanks.

    Thomas, we do get new varients, and have since delta but delta is the top dog worldwide now . Most if not all varients have been observed in long term care patients receiving monoclonal treatments. Jed was right about Corona virus mutating slowly and only with human intervention did we get to delta. Unfortunately we have created the delta strain by treating human petri dish as well as most if not all mutations.

    1) Vaccines do not (= 0 or even less) protect from a CoV-19 infection.

    False. they protect a bit, not perfectly. Less in old people, especially > 6 months after vaccination.


    2) Some vaccines (Pfizer/Oxford crap) already do only marginally protect from CoV-19 death. See Swiss/Israel data un-fudged.

    False (still don't understand base rate fallacy??)


    3) Vaccines are safe except for 500 victims/million and 15-25 deaths.

    I'm not actually sure what that means. 25 deaths / 3.6 billion people => 10 per billion. I expect the deaths from vaccines are a bit higher than that

    500 victims/million. Victims of what? That is too high for serious side effects.



    4) Boosters fail as these induce high numbers of CoV-19 infections (6 deaths/day in Israel)

    False. They increase protection against infection. There is good though not perfect evidence for a large increase in protection. Look at the exact figures, and the caveats, and try to prove your statement?


    5) vaccines do not stop the pandemic or make it worse due to escape mutation promotion.

    true, they don't stop it. But they may reduce it's length, at least in developed countries that cannot politically afford to have too many people dying and hospitals overflowing, much as you might reckon that a quick way out (and it is - too - just not a nice way out for the people who die or get long covid, nor their relatives). There is no evidence they make it worse through escape mutation when the variants so far have been from populations naturally immune breeding escape mutations.


    6) The only country that stopped CoV-19 was India that used proper treatment!

    India has a much higher COVID total infection rate than other countries as shown by seropositivity - it did not stop COVID - it let the epidemic run its course quickly. It has a demographic advantage. As does S America and all other developing countries.


    Following the second wave, a very high number of Indian people have COVID-19 antibodies. In recent surveys conducted by health authorities, two-thirds of India’s population have been found to have them. Considering less than 30% of Indians had received at least one vaccine dose when the surveys were conducted, this clearly highlights how widely the virus spread during the second wave.

    With the virus having overwhelmed the country’s already struggling healthcare system, India is now trying to identify and fill the gaps that became visible during the second wave.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    5) vaccines do not stop the pandemic or make it worse due to escape mutation promotion.

    true, they don't stop it. But they may reduce it's length.

    You seem to hate real world data. Uttar Pradesh and 15 other India states did end the pandemics 4 months ago. The vaccine terror states (includes UK,USA,de,FR,) are still struggling with high death rates.

    So you simply write bullshit!


    The same for your base rate error. May be once try to understand real data and not your buddies fake information....

    In Switzerland vaccinated/unvaccinated is still about the same size. So even you should get the classic base rate right.


    Adding infection protection will be a mystery for you as long as you survive your booster...

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    You simply talk nonsense. RNA cancer gene therapy is not a vaccine. Based on a different effect than ordinary vaccines use, the bodies is forced to produce anti-bodies of a very limited pattern range.

    I'd like to knock this stuff on the head. It is blatant Wyttenprop we have been hearing for too long.


    the mRNA vaccines deliver a small number of proteins which the body raises an immune response to, as opposed to conventional inactivated virus vaccines where you get the whole virus coat.


    true, that makes these vaccines more specific to given viruses.


    But the body is not forced to do anything. It is in fact forced to do less than with a normal virus, where there are more different antibodies stimulated, because more proteins are seen by the immune system. There is no reason at all to think this in any way harmful. If you think it is harmful perhaps you should take multiple vaccines simultaneously - say Flu and COVID?


    THH

    To balance the HPV vaccine info these researchers I point to are believing that vaccine do good, just that our process to handle adverse signals may be corrupt or less than optimal, it look like there was never a serious follow up of the signal that was found. Also there was around 2018 researchers in Sweden that wanted a more thorough investigation of the signal, but as far as I see not much was done. Newest info seam to be that the vaccine is a slam dunk, But too much is left for sheer luck to my taste.

    Quote from Fm1

    Thomas, we do get new varients, and have since delta but delta is the top dog worldwide now . Most if not all varients have been observed in long term care patients receiving monoclonal treatments. Jed was right about Corona virus mutating slowly and only with human intervention did we get to delta.

    delta emerged before the vaccines, as a response to a population that without much intervention had got high immunity to previous variants. And untreated HIV cases or others with poor immune systems (no human intervention) have been shown to be good breeding grounds for variants. there are an awful lot more of those than people with monoclonal antibodies.


    I agree there are new variants, but they are not out-competing delta yet and therefore have not emerged.


    they will eventually.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    Anyway, you need the whole world shutting covid down completely to prevent new variants. It ain't gonna happen.

    There is no technical reason why that should not happen. The whole world could be vaccinated. Even with today's vaccine, that would be enough to reduce the R0 to below one, and to ensure enough herd immunity to eliminate the virus from the human population. The vaccine does not have to be perfect to accomplish that. If it does not happen, that will be a political choice made by wealthy nations. They will have decided not to spend one dollar to save a hundred thousand dollars. Yes, a hundred thousand over the next several decades.

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    The same for your base rate error.

    So would you care to explain why base rate is not relevant to calculating vaccine efficacy? I think you still do not understand the maths, which is pretty weird.


    My only explanation is you have a selective attention that makes you unable to remember any argument contrary to your idee fixe, no matter how obvious and compelling.

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    Switzerland:: Double vaxx deaths update. Since 1. October we had 115 deaths 42 double vaxx so 36% of all death are double vaxx- about 15% (absolute) more since may last report. Total vaccination is around 56% so the double vaxx death protection rate is more or less the same (100-36)%.

    Just got an update:: 2/3 of all vaccinations are with Moderna so it effectively protects 6x better than Pfizer crap. So we have 18% with Pfizer. 46% not yet double vaxx. So the Pfizer protection is already < 0%....

    Quote from stefan

    od, just that our process to handle adverse signals may be corrupt or less than optimal, it look like there was never a serious follow up of the signal that was found. Also there was around 20


    Quote from JedRothwell

    There is no technical reason why that should not happen. The whole world could be vaccinated. Even with today's vaccine, that would be enough to reduce the R0 to below one, and to ensure enough herd immunity to eliminate the virus from the human population. The vaccine does not have to be perfect to accomplish that. If it does not happen, that will be a political choice made by wealthy nations. They will have decided not to spend one dollar to save a hundred thousand dollars. Yes, a hundred thousand over the next several decades.

    Sweden gives 1 million doses to poor countries, that's 1/10 of the population say 20 dollar per dose and we are talking about 2dollar per swede. That peanuts. But we should give 10x as much to make a dent, but that seam not to be happening. I think that's the ball park we need to get into. It is the best spent money one possibly can as Jed just wrote above.

    Quote from stefan

    Also there was around 2018 researchers in Sweden that wanted a more thorough investigation of the signal, but as far as I see not much was done.

    2017/2018 the mafia took over most states. So only making money counts since then.


    Japan fully stopped the HPV vaccine! The have no many children left to kill or cripple...

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