Covid-19 News

Quote from JedRothwell

I do not understand what you mean. After you gassed up the car, did you return home? If you had been wearing gloves, would you have taken them off? (Okay, maybe if you get gas on them.) But after a little shopping, you wouldn't take them off. After using the banking machine, you wouldn't take them off. In fact, if I were you, I would put them on before leaving the apartment, and not take them off until I get back to the apartment and close the door. THEN take them off. When you take them off, they go inside-out and you do not touch the outside surface. So you drop them straight into the washing machine. And you immediately wash your hands.

The only problem with this method is that you might transfer viruses from the banking machine to the door of your apartment. That would not hurt you, because you are wearing gloves, but it might infect someone else. So I guess everyone should wear them.

I think you are right. My suggestions were for when you also want to limit transfer of virus from one location to another and if you want to keep your car a virus-free zone.

I like the hand-washing-with-gloves-on idea. It allows you some face touching moments (just after a wash).

Added thought: Having said all this ... I still don't understand what particular efficacy you think gloves have. If you intend to wear the same pair of gloves all day and then take them off once you enter your house, how does that differ from not wearing gloves all day and washing your hands when you enter your house?

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Quote from Bruce__H

Having said this ... I still don't understand what particular efficacy you think gloves have. If you intend to wear the same pair of gloves all day and then take them of once you enter your house,

No, that's not the plan. Suppose you are in lockdown, like the people in Wuhan or Italy. At 10 a.m. you have errands to run. You put on gloves, a face mask and glasses. You go to the grocer, go to the bank. You come back home and take off the gloves. They prevent bacteria and viruses from getting on your skin and under your nails. I think viruses are less likely to adhere to latex than skin. However, after you take them off, you wash your hands anyway. Out of caution and because you might touch the outside of the glove while taking it off.

You drop the gloves in the laundry. In the event of a serious pandemic, I intend to change my clothes entirely, and take a shower, the way my grandfather did.

If you are not in total lockdown, and you go to the office, you wear the gloves going there and another pair coming back. Maybe go to the grocery store on the way home, still wearing them. As you said, there is no point to leaving them on all day. You will end up touching your face with them.

Quote from JedRothwell

No, that's not the plan. Suppose you are in lockdown, like the people in Wuhan or Italy. At 10 a.m. you have errands to run. You put on gloves, a face mask and glasses. You go to the grocer, go to the bank. You come back home and take off the gloves. They prevent bacteria and viruses from getting on your skin and under your nails. I think viruses are less likely to adhere to latex than skin. However, after you take them off, you wash your hands anyway. Out of caution and because you might touch the outside of the glove while taking it off.

You drop the gloves in the laundry. In the event of a serious pandemic, I intend to change my clothes entirely, and take a shower, the way my grandfather did.

If you are not in total lockdown, and you go to the office, you wear the gloves going there and another pair coming back. Maybe go to the grocery store on the way home, still wearing them. As you said, there is no point to leaving them on all day. You will end up touching your face with them.

OK. But I think that your plan and my plan (no mask, no gloves, frequent hand washing, hand-face discipline, avoid coughers and sneezers) will produce about the same amount of protection.

Complete quarantine measures should be taken immediately everywhere otherwise all healthcare systems will be swamped as has occurred in Italy. There's no easy way around this, taking a step by step approach of containment phases followed by other phases is just a way of burying minister's heads in the sand.

Quote from Bruce__H

no mask

I personally think that it is good for many people to wear masks. The main reason is there is a significant time ( 5 to 14 days) between being communitable and symptoms. Yes put on a mask if you have symptoms, but you should start wearing them 14 days before you show symptoms..... think about it.

Our only reliable weapon right now is social distancing and avoidance. We must get the R0 below 1. wearing masks before symptoms show is one method to decrease that R0. Even masks with 50% reduction on transmission of the virus would go a long way to reduce the R0 if enough people used them. N99's are good but we need to get to a social distancing factor of about 50% to stop this thing. Every little bit is needed.

the perfect is the enemy of the good.

uv wands are a good way to "sanitize" your work space.

Quote from oldguy

I personally think that it is good for many people to wear masks. The main reason is there is a significant time ( 5 to 14 days) between being communitable and symptoms. Yes put on a mask if you have symptoms, but you should start wearing them 14 days before you show symptoms..... think about it.

Our only reliable weapon right now is social distancing and avoidance. We must get the R0 below 1. wearing masks before symptoms show is one method to decrease that R0. Even masks with 50% reduction on transmission of the virus would go a long way to reduce the R0 if enough people used them. N99's are good but we need to get to a social distancing factor of about 50% to stop this thing. Every little bit is needed.

the perfect is the enemy of the good.

"No mask" is part of my plan for protection against infection. I don't see how wearing a mask produces any meaningful extra protection in that regard.

With regard to transmission while asymptomatic -- you may or may not be right, I don't know. Do asymptomatic people leave large virus loads around on surfaces even when they aren't coughing or sneezing? Don't know.

People who are coughing or sneezing should definitely wear a mask if they are in public. Best to self-quarantine though.

(Note: I realize I keep mentioning sneezing even though it is not a Covid-19 symptom. This is because people with "asymptomatic" Covid-19 (i.e., no fever, no cough) might simultaneously acquire another infection that causes them to sneeze out parts of their corona virus load.)

Traffic between Italy and UK, Austria, Balkan etc, stopped. Labor workers still can enter Switzerland. Its a "local" containment and may be we have to close traffic to south part of Switzerland soon.

Most European countries stop public events above 150 people in one spot but this will end soon too. No more real sports on TV..

This is not done to protect people as the virus will any way stay for years. Its done for protecting the health system as our society allows to get older with tons of medication. The current estimate is still that 5% of the infected need intensive care. So far all deaths in Switzerland did have preconditions or were older than 80 years. But I expect some younger heavy smokers will die too.

If we use a clear brain approach then the current hysteria is produced by the existing misconception of medicine and live style. The most endangered are old people with a bad live style or enough money to live a third or fourth live. Unluckily the same people are the rulers of most companies and countries.

I hope the "corona party" will change the way people think and live as we are lucky that this virus is not as potent as MERS! Just think about what would happen if 30% of all people would be wiped out, what still could happen if the virus mutates.

I hope the US folks know what that means. No more airplanes in the US sky for some weeks and closed interstates. Hard times ahead.

(By the way the Milano region has the most bad air in Europe during winter time like Wuhan for China..)

Re MERS - while worse viruses than this one are possible, generally if the virus is more lethal it will also be less good at spreading, for obvious reasons.

Re UK inaction. If you believe long-term containment impossible (as most do) then you want to time the peak period to start early summer and continue through Summer. You want to stretch it out which means extraordinary measures at the right time, not immediately.

In both US and UK difficult to see how it could be contained. US has those illegal immigrants + non-insured + fragmented health system. UK has v large number of people in gig economy => they starve if they self-isolate.

Nobody is learning from what is happening in Italy, smug so called heath experts here saying 'it couldn't happen here'! Imagine the spread amongst 200,000 people attending the Cheltenham races today, when will we ever learn? Stupid idiots running things here as usual

I hope someone is writing a book "The darstardly Plot of Wuhan Flu"

Quote from Bruce__H

But I think that your plan and my plan (no mask, no gloves, frequent hand washing, hand-face discipline, avoid coughers and sneezers) will produce about the same amount of protection.

Hand face "discipline" can never be as good as a mask and glasses to stop you from touching your face. Discipline can be forgotten, or it can weaken. A physical barrier will not go away.

Frequent hand washing is nowhere near as effective a barrier as latex. Doctors, nurses, dentists and surgeons wear latex gloves for a good reason. It is much safer than bare hands, for both the patient and the doctor.

Quote from Bruce__H

"No mask" is part of my plan for protection against infection. I don't see how wearing a mask produces any meaningful extra protection in that regard.

As noted several times, by several people, a mask produces meaningful extra protection by preventing you from touching your face. It works better than "discipline." Also, if you happen to be standing next to someone who is sick, and that person sneezes, a mask may prevent water droplets from reaching your face. The viruses are usually in droplets, not so much in the air by themselves. They may adhere to surfaces after the water dries. Which is why you need latex gloves.

Quote from Wyttenbach

This is not done to protect people as the virus will any way stay for years.

No, it will not. A vaccine will be developed, and it will be driven into extinction in humans.

Warning: Big increase in death rate in Italy (+36% absolute one day!!) . Real death rate is now way higher than 10% close to the initial Wuhan level of 17%! Whether this is due to a similar smog situation will be known in some weeks...

In the mean time we must assume its the more deadly strain and people should minimize contacts with ties to Italy for the next 4 weeks at least.

We here in central Europe are close to the next escalation step as most public events will be forbidden. In Japan a large number of infections just happened in small music clubs - restaurants, luckily most guests where younger than 40.

Within one weeks all schools, universities, sports events gyms will be closed and locked down here in Europe. Please forget all holiday plans.

And please do not believe such bullshit as below.

Quote from JedRothwell

No, it will not. A vaccine will be developed, and it will be driven into extinction in humans.

The surface protein of corona frequently changes, what is a challenge since 30 years as all developments so far failed. Some dramatically, in way they promoted a negative reactions (increase the virus effect...). Thus any live test will need at least 2-5 years!

Quote from Wyttenbach

Warning: Big increase in death rate in Italy (+36% absolute one day!!) . Real death rate is now way higher than 10% close to the initial Wuhan level of 17%! Whether this is due to a similar smog situation will be known in some weeks...

In the mean time we must assume its the more deadly strain and people should minimize contacts with ties to Italy for the next 4 weeks at least.

We here in central Europe are close to the next escalation step as most public events will be forbidden. In Japan a large number of infections just happened in small music clubs - restaurants, luckily most guests where younger than 40.

Within one weeks all schools, universities, sports events gyms will be closed and locked down here in Europe. Please forget all holiday plans.

And please do not believe such bullshit as below.

The surface protein of corona frequently changes, what is a challenge since 30 years as all developments so far failed. Some dramatically, in way they promoted a negative reactions (increase the virus effect...). Thus any live test will need at least 2-5 years!

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The thing about this virus is it's new. So no one has a handle yet on exactly how contagious it is or what the mortality rate is. The data varies from country to country. This article below thinks the reason Italy's death rate is higher is because its population is older. It's a decent guess, but hard to know if it is the answer.

Still, it really feels like the next couple of weeks are a "hold your breath" moment. This includes those of us in the U.S. where this thing could really breakout, or in Europe where Spain and France could go the way of Italy. If all of those things go bad, then all bets are off imo. What crucial time this is right now on where this all goes.

https://www.livescience.com/wh…virus-deaths-so-high.html

Quote from JedRothwell

Hand face "discipline" can never be as good as a mask and glasses to stop you from touching your face. Discipline can be forgotten, or it can weaken. A physical barrier will not go away.

It is a matter of practice. I know this from personal experience. Some molecular biological techniques require such discipline to prevent contamination of DNA samples by so-called endonuclease proteins found in the skin. Putting gloves on prevents this contamination unless you touch your face and recontaminate the gloves. Such discipline is possible and the advantage in the Covid-19 case is it encourages constant hand washing (because you know that washing your hands wallows you too touch your face again and that is so nice!). The face-hand discipline is aided by developing the habit of touching your face with the inside of your elbow instead of your hand.

Quote from JedRothwell

As noted several times, by several people, a mask produces meaningful extra protection by preventing you from touching your face.

This is true. I was the first one to note this more than a month ago on this thread (see post #56). But there are other ways to produce meaningful protection too. In some ways they are better. The masks you see most people wearing are probably filthy with viruses because they are always adjusting the masks with their unwashed gloves or hands. They have no hand/face discipline.

Quote from JedRothwell

Also, if you happen to be standing next to someone who is sick, and that person sneezes, a mask may prevent water droplets from reaching your face. The viruses are usually in droplets, not so much in the air by themselves. They may adhere to surfaces after the water dries. Which is why you need latex gloves.

What you say here is true, except the last sentence. You don't need gloves. Not with frequent hand washing and hand/face discipline.

Quote from Wyttenbach

The surface protein of corona frequently changes, what is a challenge since 30 years as all developments so far failed.

Vaccines were created for SARS and for many seasonal flu viruses. More to the point, EVERY SINGLE EXPERT at the W.H.O., the CDC and every other major public health institution has said that a vaccine will be developed in a year or a year and half. I think it is unlikely you know better than these people.

Quote from Wyttenbach

Real death rate is now way higher than 10% close to the initial Wuhan level of 17%!

How do you compute 10%? There are 10,149 cases, 1,004 recoveries, 8,514 active and 877 critical. There are 631 deaths. That is more like 6%, even taking into account the number of sick people who are likely to die. Nearly all the victims are elderly people, presumably in part because Italy has the oldest population in the world. When you take the demographics into account, Italy's mortality rate is not that much higher than other countries. It is somewhat higher because the hospitals are stressed.