Covid-19 News

  • 'Comparing my simplistic spreadsheet to professional models, I find that around April 12 my spreadsheet departs far from reality, and becomes useles'

    But I believe that professional models are not any better due to the lack of data.


    No, the professional models are much better. They have been predicting the numbers accurately, weeks in advance. They have lots of good data, from China, Japan and Europe. Not such good data from U.S., but you can extrapolate even when the margin of error is large. The overall trends are clear. New York knows how many patients are in hospitals, and they can measure the growth rate of hospitalized patients and make educated guesses about how many there will be in a week, or two weeks, and when the peak will come. They can do this even when they can only estimate how many cases are outside the hospitals and unregistered.


    If they start administering antibody tests, including some random testing of the general population, authorities will have a much better grasp of the overall infection rate, and the likely peak.


    You can also extrapolate backwards, from deaths back to the total number of cases (with a lag). You couldn't do this weeks ago because there were few deaths. Now, unfortunately, U.S. has ~500 deaths a day, and in 3 days we will have 1,000, and six days 2,000. Those are statistically significant numbers. You can draw conclusions from them. There is now no way to avoid that number of deaths. Even if we could magically stop the infections, bringing the daily new cases down to zero, there are thousands of terminally ill people who will surely die over the next few weeks, and their numbers double every 3 days, exactly the same rate as the daily case rate was, back when this cohort of sick people got sick. (In other words, with a lag.) The daily case rate has declined recently, so it doubles every 7 days instead of every 3 days. If that keeps up, it means that in a few weeks, deaths will be doubling every 7 days instead of every 3 days.


    The overall trend trend must stop fairly soon. In about a month. It can stop in two ways:


    1. The lockdown is effective and it continues for as long a needed. The epidemic reaches the natural peak and declines, because a large fraction of the population gets sick, recovers or dies. The rate remains predictable because medical care is generally available. Case mortality is no worse than 3.5%. We hope it is 1% or 2%.


    2. The lockdown fails, mainly because people ignore it, as they did in Italy until recently. Things go completely out of control. Deathly ill patients cannot get aspirin, and die in large numbers in tents in hospital parking lots or at home. We are back in the 14th century. The case mortality rate is somewhere between 6% and 10% -- the experts have no idea where it might be. Since 20% must be hospitalized now to survive, a large fraction of those people will die instead.


    You can see why the doctors are so anxious to flatten the curve and keep things in Scenario 1. You can see why estimates of the total dead vary from hundreds of thousands up to 6 million. It is not that the models are inadequate or imprecise. The problem is that the people running the models cannot know whether the public will cooperate and stay locked down.

  • That is only partly true. They did know of it, and tried to hide it. However they succeeded in containment. They told the W.H.O. other countries all about how they contained it, and offered help. Only Korea and Japan paid attention. The Japanese doctors say they learned many lessons and many practical techniques from their Chinese colleagues. If the U.S. and the EU had paid attention, we would have contained it. There is no question these techniques work. It cannot be a coincidence that three large countries have only 50 to 100 cases a day, no pressure on their hospitals, and practically no deaths. This is containment.


    The Chinese government has been evil, but the medical establishment and the scientists have performed magnificently. Plus, we must give credit to the political leaders for handing over control to the medical establishment, mobilizing resources, building hospitals overnight, and moving army medics and others into Wuhan.

    I would rather suggest:


    China has TOLD the WHO and the world they have succeeded containing it.

    As further info leaks out of the country the opposite will be found to be true.

    I suspect that many many thousands will die and the exact #’s will never be known.


    In Roseland67 world, I highly doubt it is contained and flat out do not believe the

    Data coming out of China.


    We’ll see

  • I think the WHO should recommend anti - viral therapy or at least allow governments to approve treatments now before full clinical trials with double blind studies are fully available. I'm going to carry on harping on about it and the fact that prophylactic use of hydroxychloroquine is extremely likely to be successful given the absence of a massive expected epidemic in malarial infested regions. Or does the WHO still think all the Nigerians with COVID-19 are still in hiding?:)

  • China has TOLD the WHO and the world they have succeeded containing it.

    As further info leaks out of the country the opposite will be found to be true.


    That cannot be the case. The medical establishments in Japan and Korea implemented the same steps they did in China. Experts in both countries say they followed the Chinese models. These steps worked. The epidemic was controlled in Japan and Korea. In other words, the experiment was successfully, independently replicated, on a nation-wide scale, in two other countries. That cannot be a coincidence. If the data in China had been bogus, and the methods had not actually worked, they wouldn't have worked in Korea or Japan either.


    Those are independent replications.


    That's the beauty of science. "Take no man's word for it" (Royal Society motto.) You don't have to trust the Chinese. You see they have been replicated, so you know they are right.



    In Roseland67 world, I highly doubt it is contained and flat out do not believe the

    Data coming out of China.


    You don't have to believe the data from China. You can ignore it. You should believe the data coming out of Korea and Japan. Those are democratic, open societies with a free press. I am in daily contact with many people in Japan. I watch the national news every night. The epidemiologists have explained their work to the public on TV and in the news in detail. The case statistics down to each individual case (anomalously) is published by the government on the internet. I know what is happening. Everyone there knows what is happening.


    Therefore, the methods work. The epidemic is contained. It might yet get out of control, but there is no sign of that happening in Korea or Japan.

    • Official Post

    Most but 6 percent. You have a base for what you are saying or just a feeling like Trump?

  • As I indicated above:

    The methods may be working but he data from China may not be believable.


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    A comprehensive video, I enjoy this channels long form science/tech content.

  • As I indicated above:

    The methods may be working but he data from China may not be believable.


    That is not possible. A method based on false data cannot work, by definition. If there were actually many more deaths in China, the same methods would have to produce many more deaths in Japan and Korea. A public health procedure that does not work for 1 billion people cannot magically start working for 120 million.


    This is fundamental to the scientific method.


    This is not a matter of "believing" or not believing what Chinese officials say. They have nothing to do with it. Nothing they say or do has any bearing on the data from Japan. This is a matter believing indisputable, objective, quantitative numbers and facts.

  • The daily totals for Italy are in. 5,217 new cases, compared to 5,974 yesterday. 0.87 times. It seems they have passed the peak. Is social distancing working? I sure hope so. It looks that way. I cannot judge but perhaps acquired immunity is also beginning to play a role? It is 1,616 cases per million population. But the actual number of cases is probably much higher, and they are concentrated in some geographic areas, so perhaps there are enough local people who recovered and have acquired immunity to have an effect.


    Here is the graph including today's data.



    As of yesterday, the graphs for Spain and Germany also look good. They show three days of stability or slight decline. I do not know if that is long enough to be a trend, or if it is still random.


    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/


    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/germany/


    In Japan there is a spike of 173 today (so far) and 194 yesterday. That's frightening. But reports say that most of the cases are from two hot spots: a hospital and a nursing home. If they know the source of the spike, they can suppress it more easily. The really frightening thing is to have 194 cases scattered around, coming out of nowhere, with no links to other cases. That's what the lead epidemiologist in Japan says. He says that's his worst nightmare. He's a professor who was involved in SARS suppression.

  • A method based on false data cannot work,

    It can.. if you have a team of epidemiologists in charge of faking the data..from Day 1..

    they are just as aware of the growth equation as anybody


    there have been a number of adjustments in the Chinese data in the early days..

    The data is subject to the dragon's coercion just as much as the lives of health professionals.

  • That is not possible. A method based on false data cannot work, by definition. If there were actually many more deaths in China, the same methods would have to produce many more deaths in Japan and Korea. A public health procedure that does not work for 1 billion people cannot magically start working for 120 million.


    This is fundamental to the scientific method.


    This is not a matter of "believing" or not believing what Chinese officials say. They have nothing to do with it. Nothing they say or do has any bearing on the data from Japan. This is a matter believing indisputable, objective, quantitative numbers and facts.

    Read what I wrote again Jed,

    and try NOT to have your answer formulated before you finish reading,

    mercy

  • It can.. if you have a team of epidemiologists in charge of faking the data..from Day 1..

    they are just as aware of the growth equation as anybody

    That cannot be the situation in Japan. Things are too open. The data is available to anyone. The actual number of patients and dead people is small. People would see if deaths were being hidden. There are only a few deaths per day in major cities. If there were dozens, or hundreds, people would come forward and angrily denounce the government for lying. They would say: "I am sure there were more than 4 deaths in Okayama. I personally know 20 people who died!" No one in Japan would fear to say that, and press would mob the people who said it.


    We can be sure the epidemiologists in Japan and Korea are telling the truth. Therefore the methods work. Therefore, they must have worked in China as well. There is no logical, quantitative, or scientific basis to doubt it. "I don't believe the Chinese government" is an opinion which cannot be quantitatively checked or subjected to rigorous proof, whereas the statistics and curves in the Chinese data can be. The curves must be right. It is biologically impossible for the methods to work with a population of 120 million and another of 51 million, but not for China.


    These methods are not black magic. They are not inscrutable, or unheard of. They have been practiced in one form or another for all of recorded history. Track patients. Isolate them, quarantine them. In medieval and Renaissance, during epidemics, travelers showing up at the gates of a city had to show papers from doctors in their home town showing they were not infected. Governments had laws that cities and towns had to report how many sick and dead people they had.


    The Chinese implemented an internet based, big-data, real-time version of the same kinds of rules. Instead of having a few doctors and hospitals monitoring the population, they have thousands of groups in the field. The groups gathered the patients' medical histories, recent whereabouts, and the names of people they met with. They report this to epidemiologist groups at headquarters, who trace contacts and find patients who have no symptoms. No one could have done this in real time before the 21st century. The CDC or the Census Bureau could have done it in the 1970s, but it would have taken weeks to compile and tabulate the data. The epidemic would be over before they could trace contacts.


    In the 19th century such a large scale effort would have taken decades to complete using manual tabulation. Toward the end of the 19th century, U.S. census was getting out of hand and would soon take more than 10 years to complete. Herman Hollerith invented punch card machines, which sped it up. These evolved into computers. And these evolved into the internet based, cloud based computing and storage, that allows this effort. It takes far more processing and tabulation than the entire human race could do manually.


    The experts at the W.H.O. were surprised the Chinese could do this. So was I. But neither of us were mystified by the methods themselves. We have no reason to doubt such methods work -- provided you have the computer power and enough people to do the field work. We did not realize you could do this on such a large scale at such speed. I -- for one -- should have realized that. The experts in Japan and Korea may have been surprised, but they lost no time implementing similar systems. They did it within days. They say they learned from the Chinese. I am sure they being honest about that. No national expert likes to admit he learned from a foreign country.


    The U.S. should have done this, but it did not, as far as I know. I have friends of friends at HHS and CDC, and that's what I have heard. There has been nothing in the New York Times. I do not think there are plans to do it now, so even if we bring the epidemic under control with a lockdown, a month after the lockdown ends, the epidemic might reappear just as bad as it was. Or worse. Without a big data, internet tracking system and widespread testing, we are blind and helpless. I suppose we will have to remain locked down until they develop a vaccine, or until 60% of the population has acquired immunity. That will be an economic calamity. Nearly all of these deaths and financial losses will be totally unnessary. They could easily have been prevented, by methods that three major nations demonstrated and proved will work.


    Apparently the Federal government decided to surrender without a fight. It is a disgrace. It is the most costly defeat in U.S. history, in both money and lives. It may rival the German holocaust in the number of deaths it causes. The holocaust was evil. This is pure stupidity.

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