Covid-19 News

    Agreed it's a nice review but again he's wrong about equilibrium times and effective plasma concentrations and does not quote the correct EC90 values for CQ or HCQ - as if from the outset influencing the reader to believe it's very unlikely to work on these erroneous biochemical figures. Wang e.g. al and the recent massive Gordon et al Nature paper show the true picture. If we worried about such side effects all the time even aspirins would be regarded as highly toxic. As @Sot would say WTF. Come on, these drugs have been freely available in the UK without prescription for years. This looks like a joint Pharma/Political conspiracy and is very dangerously depriving patients of a tried and tested medicine. I could be far more political here about it but will just be banned. Enough said?

    I don't understand how'd you also think Zelenko writing to the President was politically motivated? Presumably he was simply saying here is a common sense way to treat Corona virus from his own medical knowledge and expertise. Experts in their fields including Didier Raoult (he's probably just given up on the whole issue by now in disgust) who have been working for years and year's are simply sidelined and ignored by a gutter 'know it all press' which has lost touch with all the old values of independent objective reporting, instead jumping from one fake news soundbite to the next. Like pharma all just chasing the holy dollar. Well who will they blame when they are lying intubated in hospital with no effective antiviral to cure them because of the garbage they have been writing?:)

    Quote from Dr Richard

    Agreed it's a nice review but again he's wrong about equilibrium times and effective plasma concentrations and does not quote the correct EC90 values for CQ or HCQ - as if from the outset influencing the reader to believe it's very unlikely to work on these erroneous biochemical figures. Wang e.g. al and the recent massive Gordon et al Nature paper show the true picture. If we worried about such side effects all the time even aspirins would be regarded as highly toxic. As @Sot would say WTF. Come on, these drugs have been freely available in the UK without prescription for years. This looks like a joint Pharma/Political conspiracy and is very dangerously depriving patients of a tried and tested medicine. I could be far more political here about it but will just be banned. Enough said?

    Quote from Lou Pagnucco

    First, interesting that ivermectin works by interfering with viral cellular entry - not just via the

    anti-importin route, i.e,, by blocking transport into the nucleus.

    I also perplexed at the virulent anti-HCQ stance of the media and bureaucrats.


    There now do exist >5 physical chemistry studies about the various possible blockings of the SARS-covid2019 action path(s). These studies do look at the various drugs coupling power to sensitive functional groups of the virus. To stop the entry path e.g. an inhibitor must at least slightly change the shape of the corona strings so it no longer fits the lock. To block replication its usually enough to block one RNA snippet that at the end will miss during the virus reconstruction phase.


    HCQ usually scores very high in the inhibiting phase where the virus is blocked before entering the cell. Ivermectin scores in both phases and is probably the best to use for stopping virus replication inside the cell.


    Avigan is proven to work too and is in wide use in Japan/China. Famotoide needs at least a short control study but does also score very high.


    Remsdesivir scores (9x) lower compared to HCQ and Ivermectin and can only be used to free hospital beds a bit earlier ( days). Much underrated is the function of Heparin (score almost as good as Ivermectin) that works similarly as Ivermectin and is given by UK doctors (out of hospital!) as I know from a friend.


    Because HCQ (+ zinc 50mg!!) , Ivermectin Azithromycin (Clarithromycin), Heparin are by far the most harmless drugs I see no other reason why there are that many corona deaths, than most doctors are not allowed to use them.


    Most cattle/Horses get Ivermectin once a year. Seems that they are far more important than humans...

    Artimisinin is another antimalarial that should have been tested months ago. It's antiviral properties make it an ideal complement to HCQ and is a known safe combination because they have safely been used together to treat malaria. Wonder when they will get round to atovaquone and primaquine? Add it to Anti Bat!

    Alan Smith does the mere presence of Dominic Cummings make all these meetings shady? Who the hell is this guy anyway and what is his relevance to a democratically elected government. Why hasn't Boris given him the boot? Another of these mysterious spin doctor I presume, probably not even one of the Eton set, but I could be wrong.

    'robust unbiased advice'! more like just muddle on and it will be all right on the night. Or It will all just go away in the summer weather won't it. I know Boris is trying his best but none of the decisions taken so far inspire any confidence that anything will improve. Until effective antiviral medicines are universally prescribed as in the rest of Europe, with telemedicine and antibody testing and tracking. All strategies have to be employed now, there is no time for quibbling about RCT testing patients can be saved now by using what we have and know now, not in weeks or months time.

    Quote from Shane D.

    This is far from over, so still a few years too soon to start picking winners, and losers.


    I do not think it will take years to develop & deploy a vaccine. Most experts say it will take 8 months to 1 year (from now). The pandemic will be over when that happens. Based on the number of infections per day in Korea, New Zealand, Japan and other Asian countries, every indication is they will contain the pandemic with minimal loss of life for the next year. There is no reason to think they will experience exponential growth. Japan came close to that, but pulled back from the brink. Korea had exponential growth from Feb. 25 to March 3, but they pulled back.


    https://www.worldometers.info/…irus/country/south-korea/


    As long as they keep doing what they are doing, they will be safe. It is costing a lot of money, but it is probably hundreds of thousands of times cheaper than closing down the economy, which is the only alternative. Those three have had a total of 250, 20 and 474 deaths in two months, which is less than the U.S. has had every day for the last 34 days. So obviously their methods are working. They are "winners" and we are "losers" -- although I would not pick those terms. They have succeeded because they have sane, modern, scientific governments and citizens. They apply 21st century methods: data-based, fact-based technology that has now been proven to work. We have failed, and in a few weeks Georgia will probably once again be facing exponential growth, because we are governed by irrational idiots who have no strategy, no plans, apparently no understanding of biology, and who are using 14th century methods. They had a month of lockdown to prepare a science-based strategy similar to the Korean one, but they did nothing. The opportunity was squandered. Millions of people sacrificed their jobs and income to give the leaders an opportunity to put in place the people and resources needed to stop the pandemic, but Federal and state leaders did nothing. Now we will pay with thousands more lost lives, lost jobs, bankrupt companies and families, and probably trillions of dollars more.


    Frankly, I do not see how anyone can look at those graphs and deny that the Koreans have succeeded, and the U.S. response has been a catastrophic failure that has needlessly killed 60,000 people, probably left tens of thousands of others damaged for life, cost trillions of dollars, and destroyed the jobs and livelihoods of tens of millions of people. For no reason! Just because we are too stupid to take common sense steps and learn from other nations. I do not see why anyone thinks the Korean approach might fail later in the year, before a vaccine is deployed.


    I hate to say this, but when the the Wall Street Journal praises Germany and ignores Korea, I see that as the lingering effect of cultural contempt for Asia. Not racism, but a false sense of cultural superiority that goes back to the 19th century. In 1800, the U.S. and Europe were far ahead of Japan, Korea and China in terms of technology, science and political freedom. They were still ahead in 1900. That was obvious to everyone. The gap was not finally closed until the 1980s. In some ways, we are still ahead, but in other ways, they are ahead of us. There is no doubt whatever they have done a better job dealing with the pandemic. At least $2 trillion better! Yet even today, some decision makers and opinion makers in the U.S. act as if Japan were still rushing to catch up in the Meiji era.

    Quote from Dr Richard

    Yeah sure but any idiot knows that the reduction in immunity is a much longer term effect than the acute 7 day treatment envisaged for CO VID 19 treatment. Remember how long it takes for a Lupus or RA patient to derive benefit from HCQ treatment? It can take weeks to months to be effective.


    I do not understand the clinical aspects of this discussion, so I have no opinion and nothing to add. But let me say this. If you prevent people from getting the disease in the first place, you do not need to use any treatments. Not HCQ or antiviral this, or that, or anything. We can prevent people from being infected. In Korea, everyone with a cell phone now has to install an app that tells them to self-test once a day, report any symptoms, and get a test if needed. It also keeps track of where they have been outside the house. That data is protected, unlike U.S. cellphone tracking data which is freely sold to commercial companies. So their privacy and civil rights are better protected than ours.


    We could do all of that and more. We could stop this epidemic cold.

    Quote from oldguy

    also.... these people that are "cured" by blood transfusions. Isn't that a passive immunity that will pass away and leave them without immunity in a second wave?


    Yes. It is a temporary cure that was developed around 1900. It was not used much after the discovery of antibiotics. It may be an effective way to reduce the severity of the symptoms, save the patient's life, and even rid the body of the virus. But it does not confer immunity. Also, it costs a lot, and it depends on donations from patients who recovered.


    I think the plan is to use it on acutely ill patients who are in danger of dying.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    Those who believe unfettered human freedom as relatively more important than human health view the interventions necessary to make this change as contrary to human rights. Those who are wise and do not need regulatory help will see regulations as annoying: which they are, for them.


    Once you start to have strong state controls on what food can or cannot be sold where, you are in a socialist world, the argument goes, and that would be seen by those arguing this as a very strong negative.


    Personally, I'm on the left wing side of this argument. Give me freedom to say what I will, and the necessary rights and structures to discover what government is doing and why it is doing it, and talk about those loudly, and in a democracy I am ok with whatever regulations are needed to make things work well for all.


    I do not see any need for heavy-handed regulations, laws or other government control to overcome the obesity epidemic. They do not have any such thing in Italy or Japan. You can buy any kind of food in Japan. Even the most fattening and bad-for-you fast food is freely available. It it not taxed or regulated. But people do not buy much of it. That is thanks to education and cultural norms. The same norms that kept Americans reasonably thin until the late 1970s. We could have over-eaten and gotten fat. Some people did, of course. But most people did what their mothers told them to do when they were kids. "No dessert until you eat your vegetables! No, you may not drink cola after school! No snacking."


    As I said, this was not some special virtue. I am not bragging. Why would I? Nearly everyone used to be thin. I just haven't changed my diet in 50 years. Or my clothes, or my taste in music. I am a stick-in-the mud. I know what I like, and I like what I know. It irks my children that I will not eat anything that wasn't available in Washington DC or Okayama in 1975, and I don't listen to popular music written after 1914. A weird conceit that I have heard from some people is: "I envy you. Thin people like you can eat as much as you like and not get fat." That's nonsense. If I ate as much as they do, I would be as fat as they are. If they ate like me and everyone else did in 1960, they would be thin.


    In Georgia, we have very poor dental health. Many people do not brush their teeth, and they do not go to dentists. It is partly because poverty is widespread and many people have not health insurance. But it also a cultural norm. 30% of the population over 65 has lost all of their natural teeth. ~60% of people in their 30s have lost enough teeth to require dentures. Denture advertisements are everywhere in rural parts of the state. Not brushing your teeth and not going to the dentist would be unthinkable in middle-class urban eastern U.S. cities in the 1960s. That's a cultural norm, the same as not overeating. Like it or not, you went to the dentist.


    Wealthy people in the U.S. still abide by the norms that prohibit obesity. So do I and so do most people I know. So we are all fit and thin. Fatness tends to run in families and social groups because it is normalized in them. Over time, people come to think it is okay for your kids to be fat and unable to run a mile. That thought would never have occurred to my parents or teachers. They would be alarmed if I looked like many kids do today. They would intervene. Any Japanese parent, teacher or doctor would be alarmed at a 10-year-old looking like the average American kid today. All it takes is that kind of social norm to reverse the trend. You don't need government regulations.


    The government does have a role. Public education and public school lunches need to be improved. Actually, the school lunches are better. Government agricultural price supports need to be revised. The CDC and other agencies need to continue to emphasize that being overweight or obese is bad healthy. They say that, but they need to keep saying it. You cannot be "healthy at any weight." That's a contradiction of terms. Government regs such as telling restaurants to list calories are helpful.


    This change is already underway. McDonald's stopped selling "Supersized" meals years ago. The food industry -- like any industry -- is a slave to public demand. If people want gluten-free foods, that's what the supermarkets will sell. Even though ~1% of the population has Celiac disease, if 10% or 20% want gluten-free stuff because that's a the latest fad, the industry will provide it. In the 1970s, supermarkets began putting the "sell by" date on food. There was no law forcing them to do this. It was purely for competitive advantage. After nearly all of them began doing it, industry standards and government regs were established making the sell-by dates reliable and uniform. Nearly all regulations in all industries begin this way. They start with public demand, and are codified later on. This is how we will return to sensible, healthy food and foodways. If we do, that is. You never know what the public will do.

    JedRothwell Yes, I agree that would be possible in an ideal world approached by how S.Koreans and Japanese people have dealt with this pandemic. Even Germany has done well relatively. To do it in the US and UK we have to drastically change our lifestyle, diet, education and cultural habits. Until that perfect regimented, ordered society emerges maybe in hundreds of years time we have no other alternative to research for antivirals and vaccines, use every available strategy known to man to beat this one. Even with 100% Track and tracing outbreaks will still occur, no system is perfect. Even if we eradicate coronavirus in the human population, it could re-emerge at any time from bats or other animals.. It's going to be with us for good now and we have to adapt to it with all our human ingenuity and knowledge to beat it.

    Please folks, do not self medicate without advice from a physician. That applies even to common OTC drugs, especially in large to gargantuan doses. All have some side effects and drug-drug interactions and occasionally, these can be severe or lethal. You can not rule these out on your own on the internet.


    One example is HCQ+Azi that someone offered to donate to someone else. First, it's efficacy is unproven. As important, it should be given to COVID-19 patients under direct physician supervision and frequent EKG testing. COVID-19 attacks the heart and can make it more vulnerable. etc. I suppose it doesn't matter that sending someone prescription drugs by mail if you are not properly licensed to do so is probably a felony in most jurisdictions?


    OTC meds like Pepcid (famotidine) and Naproxen while very safe when used in the ,manufacturer's recommended dose but can still have unintended consequences. Naproxen, in particular, can cause gastrointestinal bleeding in older adults. And that is in normal doses. And the bleeding has occasionally been fatal. So get professional advice and be careful out there.


    Precautions in using non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs like Naproxen: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4809680/


    rubycarat I hope you stay well. But if you are unfortunate enough to get COVID-19, please seek and follow the advice of a qualified physician, (an M.D. or D.O in the US). And if possible, track what's going on with a COVID-19 PCR test for live virus (Sickness does not necessarily mean COVID-19) , track your temperature, oxygen saturation if possible, difficulty in breathing and extreme fatigue. For any of those, don't treat yourself. There are so many misconceptions and mistakes on the internet. For example, tiny amounts of quinine won't hurt but won't do anything to treat the infection.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    The pandemic will be over when that happens.

    Perhaps the pandemic will be over as such but most likely, even if herd immunity is reached, there may be genetic drift in the virus and incomplete vaccinations or responses in the population. So it will become a dangerous pest like influenza. I am guessing that due to the unique properties of COVID-19, particularly it's high infectivity via person to person droplet and surface spread, it won't just mostly fade away like MERS and SARS.

    Quote from seven_of_twenty

    Please folks, do not self medicate without advice from a physician. That applies even to common OTC drugs, especially in large to gargantuan doses. All have some side effects and drug-drug interactions and occasionally, these can be severe or lethal. You can not rule these out on your own on the internet.


    One example is HCQ+Azi that someone offered to donate to someone else. First, it's efficacy is unproven. As important, it should be given to COVID-19 patients under direct physician supervision and frequent EKG testing.

    Self medication of any drug you don't exactly understand is always hazardous!


    Self medication should only be done in cases where you do have no access in time to a doctor or a pharmacy, that is able to deliver the right medicament(s). But.. panic is no reason to act. Even then always check/discus your symptoms with a friend at least.


    On the other side do not wait to long. If you score 3 out of 4 with sudden fever >38, head pains, dry cough, respiratory pains in upper chest then call a doctor. I know people believing they had a simple flu, that finally luckily survived corona. It's not a shame to go to early it's a shame to loose your live for your shame.


    As mentioned: You can take Quercetin as a preventive and Sutherlandia/Sceletium without prescription for a cheap treatment. But even I did check a doctor.


    Quote from Dr Richard

    Or It will all just go away in the summer weather won't it. I


    We here had 2+ weeks warm and very dry weather (did help for a sharp decline of infections). UK is never in this category and thus will never see any help from climate. As you might know, the only, thing that may kill the virus early is dryness! (low air humidity that kills the droplets etc..)

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