Fear is an infection. You have it (or you are paid).
Here we go with the paranoid bullshit again. Hey, Navid: nobody here is paid. No one pays people to write on low volume specialized forums. You can make money on the internet by posting but it had better be stuff that gets millions of hits.
QuoteI do suspect that what she is saying about the use of HCQ being heavily influenced by a fear and intimidation campaign, is correct. The evidence is right there in plain sight. It is politicized as the media set out to do.
Never should have come to that. A new low for the advocacy media. As even you have said, this should be just another drug to be tried. If it works it works, if not, go on to the next one.
If HCQ does prove effective, I would like to think they will be held accountable for their role in suppressing its use, but that will never happen. They will just move on to the next thing to get Trump
Nobody suppressed anything. Nobody is precluded from doing research on virtually any therapy they want and there are a whole lot being done on HCQ, AZI +/- zinc. .... Poiitical commntary removed. Alan...Having said that, I am disappointed in CNN and it's medical consultants. They did go out of their way to point out only the studies on the drugs that yielded bad results and did a terrible job of critical thinking about how and why those results were obtained. Same of course, with the Fox network pushing the meds. Obviously, the correct answer for now is we simply don't know because there is not one solitary single study which is correctly done.
Artemisia extracts have been tested on SARS cell lines..way back in 2005
and the Germans will test it..soon
https://www.dw.com/en/covid-19…rtemisia-begin/a-53442366
Artemisia annua Compositae Whole plant Ethanol extract
EC50 = 39 mg/litre dosage..
http://www.hdbiosciences.com/D…ociated%20coronavirus.pdf
Perhaps Madsgascar scientists.. have done more research than the Chinese in 2005.?
or the Madagascar president is playing politics..
the Algerians say it is too toxc..
It surprising that the Chinese did not use it for Covid-19 in Wuhan
since it s a Chinese developed( over many decades) drug.. successful for malaria..
The drink is derived from artemisia – a plant with proven anti-malarial properties – and other indigenous herbs
Anyone believing that NIH, CDC, FDA, Fauci have motives beyond reproach should not view the following --
NIH designs a defective HCQ trial (despite good intentions, of course)
Second Waves Of Coronavirus Infections Are Pretty Much Guaranteed
Feds Pressure Docs to Stop Prescribing HCQ
What The Experts WON'T Tell You About The Data
Just FYI -- news on COVID-19 via Market Watch -- new outbreaks reported in states planning to reopen soon as Trump says testing is overrated (5/15/2020)
https://www.marketwatch.com/st…ting-overrated-2020-05-15
NIH designs a defective HCQ trial (despite good intentions, of course)
Do you mind providing a printed reference for that? A lot of us don't have time for Youtube videos, especially rambling ones from Fox News (or any other) talking heads. I really want to read if NIH's design is bad but I don't want Laura Ingraham or someone similar on Fox's payroll, explaining it to me, thank you very much.
An interesting paper and model[s] -- Masksim, showing that if 90% of the population uses a 70% effective mask (eg home-made) before day 50, the epidemic can be suppressed.
Paper : https://arxiv.org/pdf/2004.13553.pdf
Universal Masking is Urgent in the COVID-19 Pandemic:
SEIR and Agent Based Models, Empirical Validation,
Policy Recommendations
Interactive model (particle-based) : https://www1.icsi.berkeley.edu/~dekai/mirror/masksim/
[ Note : you can run the simulator for N days, pause it, and change the parameters ]
Does Covid -Organics contain Sutherlandia, Angelica, Sceletiium, Nigella as well as the Artemisinins? Be good to find out if it is the same as the herbal component we proposed for Anti Bat. What are the odds it's the same? We could certainly add in the Artemisinins, which have clear anti malarial and antiviral actions. Pity it was not tested in the Gordon et al Nature study, being another antimalarial drug should have made it a prime candidate. So add it in provisionally? As to liver damage the combination doses can be lowered to suit the patient but the therapy given over a short period is unlikely to be hepatotoxic. Same as paracetamol maybe? Another point West Nile Virus pre-infection may confer immunity to Sars Cov2 infection because as the Nature study has shown, the protein structures of these two viruses are the most homologous, something of a possibility that the authors completely missed. Unlikely though but possible.
We know this virus spreads very easily. Full lockdown reduces R to less than 1.
As usual you don't read the data and reproduced (payed) FUD. The R value can be much larger than 1 e.g. at 3-4 as 95% of all people show no Symptoms and most of these will not spread the disease. In fact we would like it to stay there to get to a kind of herd immunity soon enough to avoid one more needed challenge for a dangerous vaccination.
I you prefer the insane path China/Korea/Japan did choose then you have to stop all human traffic with countries abroad that do not hunt for the last virus. Obviously you prefer to live in an insane world.
I wish this doctor was right. But her rabble-rousing here gives no evidence that she is right. Let me ask you - what fraction of patients 30-55 who have COVID symptoms will recover naturally, and quickly?
And we all know how important private therapies (whatever that is) are in scientific research.
This is bla..bla of overwhelmed minds. The cure for Heliobacter Pyroli came out of private research of a single Aussi doctor... In fact most traditional medicine has been developed by private researchers. Modern, highly payed (some also bribed) doctors just believe what they get. Always when something new works the mafia fights it down to a point where they can steal and marketing it with profit. Sutherlandia is just one of the most recent cases. In my Sutherlandia case doctors did act with a little bit more than just SOT'ies background...
seven_of_twenty : I hope nobody related to a person dying in your ICU will sue you one day if you missed to give them Heparin/Ivermectin and one of the antibiotics we suggest. In a war situation the doctors must be able to independently act on their own believe. If you wait for CDC/WHO or uncle Gilead then its just for the bribe.
seven_of_twenty : I hope nobody related to a person dying in your ICU will sue you one day if you missed to give them Heparin/Ivermectin and one of the antibiotics we suggest. In a war situation the doctors must be able to independently act on their own believe. If you wait for CDC/WHO or uncle Gilead then its just for the bribe.
Good one.
I talked to a Intensivist in Michigan. He didnt say much about HCQ but did say something about "Trump thinks he's a doctor and a engineer" -- but what was notable that he said "everyone is going to get this disease, and anyone who thinks vaccine has no idea....most vaccines are at most 15% effective"
He wasnt jumping out of windows. He was matter of fact, like let's just get on with it...there will be surge of cases as we open up. It has to work through the population folks. This has happened for all of humanity.
Mycobacterium tuberculosis was the second most similar SARS Cov 2 protein host interaction (inferring protein homology) shown in Fig 2. of the Gordon et al Nature paper. Could this correlate with the BCG vaccine reports showing some effect against COVID 19? In which case a vaccine against West Nile Virus could well be effective against coronavirus. There was an outbreak of West Nile Virus in Greece recently, it's endemic in mid West US and of course in malarial regions of Africa and Asia being spread by mosquitos. Could this be the reason for such low numbers of cases and deaths in these regions? No WNV in mosquito - free regions but the deaths from Corona Virus are massive. Could be just another meaningless correlation or it could be the vaccine we need to beat this one. Test it on monkeys in Oxford alongside the vaccine they already have, could be a good control if it doesn't work, if it does it might have a broad spectrum against different coronavirus strains.
No vaccine for WNV so that's a non starter. Wonder why not? Can lead to encephalitis. Or maybe most cases like with COVID are mild and are not noticed, but could confer immunity to related infections (like COVID).
I talked to a Intensivist in Michigan. He didnt say much about HCQ but did say something about "Trump thinks he's a doctor and a engineer" -- but what was notable that he said "everyone is going to get this disease, and anyone who thinks vaccine has no idea....most vaccines are at most 15% effective"
FOS, as usual: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4802703/
"In industrialised countries, several infectious diseases have been controlled and, in some cases, eliminated through routine vaccination. The generally high level of vaccination coverage has led to a dramatic decline in the reported incidence of many vaccine-preventable infectious diseases (Fig. 1) (7). A comparison between the period prior to the implementation of national vaccination recommendations in the United States and 2006 showed a greater than 99% decline in the number of cases of diphtheria (100%), measles (99.9%), paralytic poliomyelitis (100%), and rubella (99.9%). A greater than 92% decline in cases and a 99% or greater decline in deaths were shown for mumps, pertussis, and tetanus (8, 9). In 2013, it was estimated that 103 million cases of childhood disease in the United States had been prevented by the use of vaccines since 1924, of which 26 million cases in the past decade alone (10). A similar trend has been observed in Europe (Table 1) (9, 11). In France, diphtheria, tetanus and polio, BCG (tuberculosis), and pertussis vaccines were estimated to be responsible for saving more than 400,000 years of life (4)."
BTW, for smallpox: 100% eradicated by vaccine. Polio would be also except for the abject morons who misrepresent the risks so that some people won't use it. Note that "common" influenza vaccine is 67% effective in preventing influenza A (H1N1) which is a pandemic strain which in the past killed millions and caused the 1918 world wide disastrous pandemic. Now, it's mostly prevented by herd immunity conferred by mass vaccination. And if someone gets it, it can be treated effectively with antiviral meds.
and ... in the specific case of influenza: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5815489/
"VE was estimated to be 25% (CI = 13% to 36%) against illness caused by influenza A(H3N2) virus, 67% (CI = 54%–76%) against A(H1N1)pdm09 viruses, and 42% (CI = 25%–56%) against influenza B viruses. ... "
But beyond that, when vaccinated individuals do get sick with the illness, they are less sick and recover faster and there are fewer deaths and hospitalizations.
Obviously, vaccines vary. What the efficiency (VE) will be for a coronavirus vaccine is yet to be determined. And even if a vaccine to confer useful lasting immunity is impossible or takes a very long time, related research into natural and synthetic (monoclonal) antibodies may result in an effective treatment even before a vaccine and from a related technology.
I will defer insulting the surprisingly consistent (consistently wrong) poster, though it is very tempting, out of concern for moderators. However there should be an award for those are most wrong most of the time. Maybe a contest. And a Pigasus award perhaps. With an invitation to submit a paper to the Journal of Irreproducible Results.
FOS, as usual: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4802703/
"In industrialised countries, several infectious diseases have been controlled and, in some cases, eliminated through routine vaccination. The generally high level of vaccination coverage has led to a dramatic decline in the reported incidence of many vaccine-preventable infectious diseases (Fig. 1) (7). A comparison between the period prior to the implementation of national vaccination recommendations in the United States and 2006 showed a greater than 99% decline in the number of cases of diphtheria (100%), measles (99.9%), paralytic poliomyelitis (100%), and rubella (99.9%). A greater than 92% decline in cases and a 99% or greater decline in deaths were shown for mumps, pertussis, and tetanus (8, 9). In 2013, it was estimated that 103 million cases of childhood disease in the United States had been prevented by the use of vaccines since 1924, of which 26 million cases in the past decade alone (10). A similar trend has been observed in Europe (Table 1) (9, 11). In France, diphtheria, tetanus and polio, BCG (tuberculosis), and pertussis vaccines were estimated to be responsible for saving more than 400,000 years of life (4)."
First of all the person was talking about the flu vaccines - we weren't talking about those rare diseases. His clinical insight is probably on track, and I'm sure if you spend the time looking you'll find the same. Looking does not mean going to the NIH.
Second, as I have already said there is a mythology that vaccines have eradicated these diseases. These diseases were on the steep decline due to public health measures like sanitation and nutrition (with the first most important). Those papers have been written - did you find them? So you have mistaken correlation for causation. Whether vaccines have cause more injury or saved more lives requires a deep look into the data - but you haven't even started with that paper. It's the mythology they teach physicians. Until you do the work, I can tell you are at step 0 so you are arguing on your "perception" of the evidence (i.e. you perceive it is overwhelming).
Maybe its time for absinthe to make comeback as Covid Absinthe
a la Malagasy Covid Organic..
The French after the conquest of Algiers in 1830 used the plant as antimalarial for hundred years,
eventually based on Artemisia herba alba which is endemic in the Maghreb.
All these plants containing thujone
make an exponential come-back,
from the Artemisia absinthium of our grand-mothers(meres)
to Artemisia afra.
À la tienne
Second, as I have already said there is a mythology that vaccines have eradicated these diseases. These diseases were on the steep decline due to public health measures like sanitation and nutrition (with the first most important).
Old, mistaken BS antivaxxer line. Sanitation and nutrition do essentially nothing for smallpox, measles, diphtheria and many other vaccine-controlled or eradicated diseases. Sanitation does help polio but without the Salk and Sabin Nobel-winning vaccines, polio would still be with us and is still present as soon as vaccination efforts lag. In other words: more bullshit. In the future, it isn't worth responding. The source seems limitless and I have little interest in stopping people from looking foolish. Maybe someone else can.
I've already heard it all from the morons I used to hang with for giggles on a forum catering to those unusually vicious con artists who rip off grieving people by pretending to talk to the dead (while doing really bad cold readings that would embarrass any
good mentalist).
QuoteIt's the mythology they teach physicians
Right. They teach mythology in medical school. So next time you need brain or heart surgery, call a mystic.
Maybe its time for absinthe to make comeback as Covid Absinthe
Not a bad idea for palliation and anxiety relief. But me, I prefer rum. Pusser's rum actually. From my pirate ancestors.
Display MoreOld, mistaken BS antivaxxer line. Sanitation and nutrition do essentially nothing for smallpox, measles, diphtheria and many other vaccine-controlled or eradicated diseases. Sanitation does help polio but without the Salk and Sabin Nobel-winning vaccines, polio would still be with us and is still present as soon as vaccination efforts lag. In other words: more bullshit. In the future, it isn't worth responding. The source seems limitless and I have little interest in stopping people from looking foolish. Maybe someone else can.
I've already heard it all from the morons I used to hang with for giggles on a forum catering to those unusually vicious con artists who rip off grieving people by pretending to talk to the dead (while doing really bad cold readings that would embarrass any
good mentalist).
Right. They teach mythology in medical school. So next time you need brain or heart surgery, call a mystic.
You haven't looked at the data. I suggest you do a big literature review. For example, Mogensen showed a greater mortality especially among females for DTP vaccine vs no vaccine, and in another study for MV showed a higher mortality. These are notable studies other researchers have taken a notice too. But you have to read many papers to come to a good perspective.
What nobody is talking about, and this is the risk right now, are the chronic conditions that may be resulting from these vaccines. Low level toxification is brutal. That is the risk we must weigh, and any competent analysis would show it hasn't been done at all. For example, this study looked at MMR in the 1990s and out of 43,458 kids not vaccinated 76 got measles, and in the vaccinated group 9 did. That's sort of interesting sure but, but what harm is the intervention causing?
Bill Gates was recently quoted as saying "we'll have to take more risks on the safety to get it out the door faster; you can't wait 2 years for side-effects if you want it delivered in 18 months." Vaccines don't have to pass any normal FDA efficacy proof (no outcomes are measure with and withtout the treatment) because they aren't drugs at all...they are biologics.
By writing about bs, morons,and foolishness you have again driven your car into a ditch. As I said, go look at the data - and think about the costs/benefits and then if you have an informed opinion we're all ears. Go read the source papers which all of the modern content points back to claiming a vaccine miracle.
But you have to read many papers to come to a good perspective.
DTP is fairly standard in the developed world..
diphtheria.. tetanus.. pertussis
High immunisation levels reduce the number of cases, and good nutrition and medical care reduce case fatality.
Death by pertussis is often preceded by a distinctive whining cough
which parents remember..
https://www.abc.net.au/news/20…ng-cough-in-perth/6329244
I would not like to live in a country without high DTP vaccination rates..
Some anti vaccine people have caused young babies to catch pertussis in hospital..
I got polio , DTP .. BCG among others..but only after I was 6 months old.
All this is irrelevant to the hoped for Covid vaccine..
One might as well compare apples with pears..
Navid the bottom line is vaccines work, study the biochemistry they must be used. Whether they will work against these Corona Virus variants remains to be seen. We can only hope and use anti bat until the molecular biology catches up, and even then it would be wise to keep a private supply just in case nothing else works.
You haven't looked at the data. I suggest you do a big literature review. For example, Mogensen showed a greater mortality especially among females for DTP vaccine vs no vaccine, and in another study for MV showed a higher mortality. These are notable studies other researchers have taken a notice too. But you have to read many papers to come to a good perspective.
What nobody is talking about, and this is the risk right now, are the chronic conditions that may be resulting from these vaccines. Low level toxification is brutal. That is the risk we must weigh, and any competent analysis would show it hasn't been done at all. For example, this study looked at MMR in the 1990s and out of 43,458 kids not vaccinated 76 got measles, and in the vaccinated group 9 did. That's sort of interesting sure but, but what harm is the intervention causing?
Navid, I have looked at all of the scientific studies I've been shown arguing your point. You show little respect for others in not linking them here. The science here from the anti-Vax movement is major bullshit, I'll answer it in detail somewhere else if you like.
The most that can be said is that no-one can be absolutely sure about the safety of vaccines, because small effects are swamped by noise from other issues and very large-scale randomised control trials (the only way to get better accuracy) are not possible. We do know that there is no evidence (above noise) that they are dangerous at a significant level, and this has been studied much more carefully than other medicines, so that noise level is lower than for other medicines we take happily.
While I don't get cross at all about different politics - e.g. those like Bob who see the harm of lockdown as much higher than the harm of more infections, I am very very angry at those who replace scientific enquiry and analysis of these matters by conspiracy, slurs, half-baked arguments not following through all of the caveats in studies, and youtube rhetoric.
In other words I'd be sympathetic with a very careful analysis of the converse hypothesis: at what level can we prove vaccines are safe? That would question the safety studies pointing out their (inevitable) weaknesses, while also noting that large number of high quality studies all showing good safety. But then the same question: at what level can we prove that sweetcorn is safe? would come up with the same unproven but low risk type of answer.
On the other hand that type of careful analysis of risks and comparison with others is not what we get from the anti-Vax arguments I have heard. No scientific interest in "exactly how safe can we be sure vacccines are". Instead a poilitical message "vaccines are bad - don't do them" backed up by half-baked obscure and methodologically flawed outlying studies and arguments that all point in one direction. That is not science.
In the context of COVID, that the anti-Vax movement could be arguing against the development of a vaccine, as one of the key tools to contain this health problem long-term, is just horrifying. Flu vaccines work, COVID mutates slower than Flu (best guess by a factor of 2) which means new vaccines will probably only be needed every other season instead of every season as for Flu.
