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    Quercetin is active, and therefore whilst I don't know of any bad problems taking it in pregnancy, I'd be cautious, especially with higher doses:


    https://www.researchgate.net/p…_homeostasis_at_adulthood


    The "standard advice" is:


    Risks. Kidney damage may result from high doses. If you are pregnant or breastfeeding, do not take quercetin as a supplement. You may get too much, especially since quercetin is in so many foods.


    As always, don't accept medical advice from an internet forum. The above is posted as some internet research.

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    The "standard advice" is:


    the problem with the 'standard advice' is its got 'modals' in it like Maybe.. or likely


    Example from Web MD


    "When you take it as a food, quercetin is likely safe.

    As a supplement, quercetin may be safe if you take reasonable amounts for a short time, such as 500 milligrams twice a day for 12 weeks.

    Taken longer, the risks are unknown.


    There is no Yes/No or RCT based info.. for most cheap supplements.


    Not much of life is Yes No or RCT based. its maybe.


    But in the case of Yuki-San , pregnant in her third tremester, her physician has not given her modal 'standard advice' he has advised her with

    YES... Take quercetin plus D3.. plus a few other things.

    the nonmodal webmd advice "DO not take quercetin in pregnancy " is not based on any RCTS with pregnant ladies

    but just a general tendency for drs to aver from ANY drug/supplement in pregnancy..except folic acid for neural tube defect.


    of course I have not followed the YES "WEbMD" advice on statin

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    I advised my 92 year old Dad to cease statins..

    his cholesterol was 141mg/dL .. the dr wanted to keep him on statins

    but my Dad found that after ceasing statin he could again walk up the steep slope of his driveway

    Maybe the statins were causing his 'getting old' MAYBE

    But YES.. there are NO RCTs for statins for 92 yr old geriatrics

    Quote from RobertBryant

    I advised my 92 year old Dad to cease statins..

    his cholesterol was 141mg/dL .. the dr wanted to keep him on statins

    but my Dad found that after ceasing statin he could again walk up the steep slope of his driveway

    Maybe the statins were causing his 'getting old' MAYBE

    But YES.. there are NO RCTs for statins for 92 yr old geriatrics


    Almost certainly his lack of muscle strength was due to the statin. My 93 year old father in law, before he had a surgery, had to stop his meds for a while, including his statin. His locomotion increased considerably within a two days. I told his doctor, and he changed up the statin to another one. Better result I think, but the effect is still there. Thinner people are more vulnerable to statin induced muscle soreness and/or weakness.

    https://www.goodrx.com/blog/mu…event-common-side-effect/


    This is not to mention the memory problems and blood sugar issues statins can cause.

    https://www.webmd.com/choleste…lesterol-lowering-statins


    I ordered Quercetin (with bromelain) and Stinging Nettle a few weeks ago, and it should be arriving soon. I'll be trying it for a few days just to experiment, then saving the rest for my father in law, just in case. I've had him hopped up on vitamins D and A for a while now.

    Quote from Mark U

    I told his doctor, and he changed up the statin to another one.

    Thanks Mark ..

    Perhaps your Dad might ask his Dr about the risk/benefit RCTs for the nonagenerian set.. are there any?

    There are many anecdotal reports, like this with the older group

    These were never identified in the original massaged BigPharma trials

    which never included the octogenarian, nonagerian set... yet statins continue to be prescribed to these veterans..


    There is a sensible rationale for not prescribing Statins to this set

    just a there is one for not prescribing to pregnant ladies.


    Statins prevent Coenzyme Q synthesis


    "Coenzyme Q10 is an important factor in mitochondrial respiration.

    Primary and secondary deficiencies of coenzyme Q10 result in a number of neurologic and myopathic syndromes. "


    Much of medical practice is not based on RCTS.. for better or worse.

    That's a great idea about Coenzyme Q10! Next time I'm at the doctors with my father in law I'll ask if he can get it as a prescription. He already gets vitamin B12 as one of his pills from the pharmacy, almost free of charge.

    Unfortunately for my father in law, although he can walk and climb stairs, his poor brain is in a sorry condition. He can't speak or write, and he is often in a very confused state. (His CT brain scan I saw had so many black areas it's a wonder he can function at all!) So at the doctor's office I do all the talking. My impression of doctors is that they typically do little of their own research, but just follow the standard protocol, which as we know is largely based on what big pharma communicates to the medical community.

    Quote from RobertBryant

    But in the case of Yuki-San , pregnant in her third tremester, her physician has not given her modal 'standard advice' he has advised her with

    YES... Take quercetin plus D3.. plus a few other things.

    the nonmodal webmd advice "DO not take quercetin in pregnancy " is not based on any RCTS with pregnant ladies

    but just a general tendency for drs to aver from ANY drug/supplement in pregnancy..except folic acid for neural tube defect.


    Well I'm glad her physician, taking all circumstances into account, has advised her, I would not wish to comment further on that specific case.


    In general, replying to your comments: of course the "standard advise is "maybe". That is because we don't know, You will remember the famous cases of treatments that appeared safe and ended up causing birth defects in some fraction of those who were pregnant taking them. If the fraction is 1% you have no idea of any problem until you have had 100 pregnant ladies take it.


    So this general tendency is just plain common sense. Whether it should be relaxed in specific cases on grounds that unknown dangers of nasties from treatment are less than unknown benefits of treatment. is a difficult ethical calculus and one that I'm glad, not being a doctor, i do not have to make.


    THH

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    you will remember the famous cases of treatments that appeared safe and ended up causing birth defects

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    Of course the "standard advise is "maybe".

    There are several birth defect cases with differences some not related to 'maybe' .

    enlighten LF on which famous case of treatment

    you need to remember that quercetin is a natural product found in many fruits so that the human body in general is adapted to handle it.

    all pregnabt women have already been exposed to it especially if they eat watercress.

    unlike thalidomide. or statins which are grown in testtubes


    another problem is that the potential revenue for BIGPharma from new drugs like thalidomide is high so the motivation l for misreporting and massaging RCT results is high

    whereas for quercetin the motivation is low because of its low cost..like hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin


    https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/324170#8-benefits..

    there is no big money non patentable old drugs and natural products

    but there is big money in Remdesivir..( note the full Remdesivir data is still not available.. yet the big Money check has been paid????)


    https://helix.northwestern.edu…rug-safety-and-regulation

    There is no'standard medical advise' as THH has postulated

    WebMD is certainly not used by doctors... which he may not know "not being a doctor'

    .. and there is YES NO and maybe depending on the drug. and the patient


    . there are definite yes's and definite no's.. especailly in the different therapeutic guidelines that doctors use

    the problem with a statin is that is not a food.... it has significant known side effects

    and the yes's are based on slim evidence for the elderly nondiabetic noncardiac population.

    https://www.bmj.com/content/362/bmj.k3359


    The problem with webmd on quercetin and on many natural or complementary products is

    that webmd don't spend resources on data collection

    there is more info out there..


    which is probably why dear Yuki-San's physician recommended quercetin for her

    He certainly did not consult Webmd...

    Quote from Mark U

    He can't speak or write, and he is often in a very confused state.

    Unluckily the use of statins is correlated with dementia. It's also correlated with diabetes II and many other organ damages. Even worse there is no significant long time correlation for any coronary infarct prevention from statins.

    Statins only show a good effect in short duration studies that completely neglect the long time damages. Thus I try to prevent as many people as possible from taking statins as you must take them for the rest of your live (big pharma hopes..).


    But some folks still believe a white frock makes a good and fear is the method of these goods.

    Quote from RobertBryant

    There is no'standard medical advise' as THH has postulated

    WebMD is certainly not used by doctors... which he may not know "not being a doctor'

    .. and there is YES NO and maybe depending on the drug. and the patient


    I did not say standard medical advice - please quote me precisely when critiquing?


    I have been agreeing the whole time that physicians need to use their own judgement about these issues - and they do - so why continue to post as though I am the big bad devil out to get you?


    I'm not.


    Since you don't like WEb MD here is a more detailed reply from a (real AFAIK) doctor. Sounds about the same as my previous (non-medical) position:


    https://www.drweil.com/health-…allergy-treatment-danger/


    Both quercetin and hesperidin are bioflavonoids, compounds that add to the flavor and color of fruits and vegetables. Quercetin is found in buckwheat and citrus fruits. I recommend it for allergies because it appears to stabilize the membranes of cells that release histamine, the mediator of allergic reactions. Taking quercetin is preventive, that is, you take it regularly to prevent symptoms from developing, not just to deal with them when they occur. And it has to build up in your system to work; allow six to eight weeks to see what it can do for you. Take 400 milligrams twice a day between meals.

    While hesperidin is also a bioflavonoid, it doesn’t have the same anti-allergy effect as quercetin. When first discovered, it was linked to capillary health. Studies have shown that it has cancer-preventive effects, at least in rats. Research also indicates that bioflavonoids in general have potent antioxidant effects, and some studies suggest that they protect against both cardiovascular disease and cancer.

    Hesperidin is unlikely to help control your allergy symptoms. Uncertainty as to the safety of taking quercetin during pregnancy stems from laboratory studies suggesting that it can cause chromosomal mutations in bacteria. We have no evidence indicating that this happens in humans, but a maximum safe dose for pregnant women or nursing mothers has not yet been established. To be safe, I would avoid it during the first trimester of pregnancy. You may be surprised to find that your normal allergies disappear during pregnancy, as the immune system makes changes along with the other system in the body. For general symptomatic relief of allergic rhinitis (hay fever), I recommend freeze-dried extracts of stinging nettles (urtica dioca). There are no safety concerns about the use of stinging nettles during pregnancy or nursing.


    You will no doubt wish to comment on the welcome fact that big Pharma does not yet prohibit use of stinging nettles?


    :)

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    You will no doubt wish to comment on the welcome fact that big Pharma

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    so why continue to post as though I am the big bad devil out to get you?

    THH can keep picking stuff off the web to his heart's content to support his contention that quercetin

    is similar to something like thalidomide..


    is this the foetal case you were alluding to please confirm or not


    did you mean THALIDOMIDE?? really


    I don't consider this reasoning as 'common sense'

    Quote from Mark U

    My impression of doctors is that they typically do little of their own research, but just follow the standard protocol, which as we know is largely based on what big pharma communicates to the medical community.


    Sadly that is the case

    My sister is one of them.. no statistics skills at all

    She has a wonderful bedside manner though


    but I am attempting to educate her about the possibility of HCQ in community treatment..


    Sad to hear about your Dad...it doesn't seem that the long term benefits of statins are relevant to his situation..

    maybe another statin holiday would be beneficial.. its worth a try.. see what happens to the fogginess.

    I have heard anecdotes that the fog lifts ... but it is not well publicised.. the nonagenarians are not so vocal.. or vallued..


    Coenzyme Q is just one more pill to swallow..many geriatrics have 10 to swallow

    and the general tendency now is to reduce the number of medications in the elderly

    because of the decreasing resilience of liver kidney etc unknown interactions..

    Quote from THHuxleynew

    You will no doubt wish to comment on the welcome fact that big Pharma does not yet prohibit use of stinging nettles?


    No doubt this will happen ASAP if they find a chemo useful ingredient... As it happened with Sutherlandia and many others...like Apricot/plum kernels.


    See also Jed's packing leaflet of the US (gen-soy/chemo-) vegi burger.. an other try of the industry to damage US health under false "health" pretext.

    Quote from Wyttenbach

    Unluckily the use of statins is correlated with dementia. It's also correlated with diabetes II and many other organ damages. Even worse there is no significant long time correlation for any coronary infarct prevention from statins..

    Thabks in advance

    Statins only show a good effect in short duration studies that completely neglect the long time damages. Thus I try to prevent as many people as possible from taking statins as you must take them for the rest of your live (big pharma hopes..).


    But some folks still believe a white frock makes a good and fear is the method of these goods.


    Could you give links, please, to the evidence that statin use is correlated with dementia? I couldn't find any


    Thanks in advance


    Oh, and you might be interested in this; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5418248/

    Quote from Lou Pagnucco

    Dr. Alam sees continuing success with Ivemectin treatment


    Dr. Alam continued, “We use the drugs within 5-6 days on all patients (and almost all got cured). Actually it needs to conduct further study whether these drugs will be effective in case of use over time.” Thus far, he has used the combination of ivermectin and Doxycycline on “some 400-500 COVID patients since April.” . .....This clinical trial should conclude within a month.


    2 died out of 400 ... seems good stats. so far... interested to see the details in a month,,

    Quote from Nigel Appleton

    Oh, and you might be interested in this; https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5418248/


    The study is a nice find. Modern statins seem to avoid diabetes II and show the best effect if their use is limited to 5 years as the authors do speculate too!


    In fact the positive result comes from the first 5 years of the treatment thereafter they see no additional effect.

    High LDL is partly a genetic effect (70% of the Germans have it) and for most it comes from bad eating/living style. Thus the international accepted therapy for high LDL is:

    - More sport, walking any movement of your body...

    - Eat healthy food - or strict diet.

    - Make a plaque (arteriosclerosis test).

    If all the above fail 3 times then give statins as it then makes really sense. The remaining risk is local vasculature inflammation hidden below plaque that will be removed by statins. So the fact that in the above study no heart failure happened is suspect as usually after 5 years many inflammatory infarcts should have occurred. May be the patients were carefully selected/monitored (CRP) and the ones at risk (2/3) were stopped latest after 5 years.

    I do not say don't use statins. But most doctors I know do not know the accepted therapy for high LDL.


    The dementia study is from China and only investigated (4000) older woman. The study was not related to statins. It did show that high LDL is associated with no dementia and low LDL with high dementia.

    I have read the study last year when a doctor did attack my wive with statins. and lied that statins will prevent dementia. You can be sure that the study from China did disappear for a few $$$ as it also happened with the negative Remsdesivir study.

    Vietnam ventilators $7000

    https://www.voanews.com/covid-…entilators-fight-covid-19


    reported 380 cases no deaths 97 million people

    Pretty good stats...no HCQ AFAIK

    the country isolation procedures are good..


    in any case a Vietnamese /Thai diet with plenty of green veges is probably helpful for general health..

    Coriander and a whole swathe of interesting names.. morning glory


    Many people in Vietnam probably don't need any supplemental quercetin

    http://www.stuartxchange.org/Kangkong

    https://link.springer.com/refe…07%2F978-3-319-78030-6_44

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