THERMAL ANOMALIES DURING ELECTROLYSIS OF LIGHT WATER

  • NOTE TO MEMBERs- New thread created for this particular topic at the request of members.



    I had quite forgotten this paper Google and I translated and I edited some time ago...might still hold some interest.


    THE NATURE OF THERMAL ANOMALIES DURING ELECTROLYSIS OF LIGHT WATER.

    (The reversible hydrogen-neutron cycle) Sidorov B. A., and Nevessky N. E.


    Thoughts on electrolysis from the lab of exp phys..pdf


  • I do have:

    • 8mm-thick graphite electrodes
    • 390V DC power supply (not giving a very stable current, but with this low power draw it should be fine)
    • Demineralized water
    • Food thermometer (but it turns off automatically every few minutes)

    But no power meter or control resistance available that I could use, only a multimeter with a somewhat imprecise current measurement function.


    A possible explanation could be that the anode is giving heat due to combustion of graphite with the evolved oxygen. However the authors point out that using a 5% Na2CO3 solution and AC did not give excess heat.



    EDIT: for what it's worth, data in the table provided in the document seems to be consistent with output power calculations using the temperature rise of 180 ml water in 120 seconds.


    Run

    1

    2

    3

    4

    5

    6

    7

    8

    9

    10

    DeltaT control

    2.2

    2.2

    2.1

    2.2

    2.2

    2.2

    2.1

    2.2

    2.2

    2.2

    Wout control

    13.8

    13.8

    13.2

    13.8

    13.8

    13.8

    13.2

    13.8

    13.8

    13.8

    DeltaT active

    2.9

    2.9

    2.8

    3.0

    2.8

    2.9

    2.8

    2.8

    2.9

    2.9

    Wout active

    18.2

    18.2

    17.6

    18.8

    17.6

    18.2

    17.6

    17.6

    18.2

    18.2

    Excess heat (%)

    31.8%

    31.8%

    33.3%

    36.4%

    27.3%

    31.8%

    33.3%

    27.3%

    31.8%

    31.8%

  • can ... See ITE page7


    Editor’s note. I found the paragraphs below very difficult to untangle, and I must confess

    that ‘ITE’ is a hypothesis I am not at all familiar with. A search failed to find the relevant

    literature except in Russian, but I am interested in knowing more if a reader could point

    me in the right direction. But for the moment, if anyone who wishes to correct any

    accidental errors incorporated below after referring to the original document please let

    me know.

    For an explanation (or description) of this mystery we advance one general idea, “the

    principle of the flickering charge”. A justification for this can be found within the

    framework of the information theory of electricity (ITE). According to ITE, the

    interaction of charged particles is a complex multistage process. It begins with the

    exchange of information, proceeds to a stage of assessment and agreement with the

    internal system requirements/regulators and only after this is any action completed.

    Between a cause and this effect there is always is a time lag, which may be extended by

    external factors both planned and unplanned.

  • Alan Smith

    I usually try to avoid focusing too much on the theory so I skipped most of it and only focused on the actual experiment.


    I'm not sure what is exactly that you're pointing out or asking here, but the authors of your translated document seem to be citing the principle of equivalence of energy and information as a possible ultimate explanation for their observations.


    https://www.quora.com/How-are-…ther/answer/Gregory-Bloom

    https://physicsworld.com/a/information-converted-to-energy/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landauer%27s_principle

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…cs_and_information_theory

  • I couldn't confirm excess heat, but the jar was uninsulated and thermocouple location might have not been ideal. However over three runs the results have been consistent. Voltage kept decreasing possibly from the conductivity of water increasing over time. I also couldn't measure current very precisely, only ever seeing 0.06A or 0.07A current draw. 141.79 grams of water have been used.


    Below is a video and data of the best instrumented run, and attached a spreadsheet.




    Using energies:




    Alan Smith

    Can these comments on this short replication attempt be moved into a new dedicated thread?

  • but the authors of your translated document seem to be citing the principle of equivalence of energy and information


    This is nonsense logic invented by physicists. Information is independent of energy in a sense that the quantity of information is not directly dependent on energy. Information is dependent on the discrimination of energy. Of course it is impossible to discriminate energy down to the fines grain and thus you will, based on such a fringe logic, never get all information...


    Further you can have quantum states with the same energy that represent different information and hence information must be independent of energy...

  • Wyttenbach I don't know/have no opinion about that. A similar concept is also mentioned in the Di Tommaso–Vassallo paper on the electron structure, in any case:

    https://www.researchgate.net/p…_Energy_Nuclear_Reactions



    In other news, I tried repeating the same test twice but I found it might be sensitive to thermometer position or possibly also electrode distance and voltage (the DC boost converter appears to get noisy and with unstable output at a too high setting so I lowered it slightly in the last test). It's not possible to determine with reasonable certainty whether excess heat is being generated with my crude setup.



  • Another test with a slightly improved connections and so on, using new distilled water in slightly lower amounts (98.25g) and a higher voltage (380V) only seemed to recover about 70% of the heat, so between the 60% and the 100% results above.


    So that it's on record, I might have to experiment with reversing electrode polarity, because I suspect that the unusually high result occurred after I swapped anode/cathode connections on the DC boost converter. If this is the case, then AC could work better. However this will be for another time.


  • This is a possible idea for high voltage AC suitable for this experiment, if it's really required:

    • Arduino Uno-based programmable microcontroller (already owned)
    • Step-up 1:19 transformer (already owned, from an APC 650VA uninterruptible power supply; I have an unused spare just in case)
    • Heavy-duty H-Bridge DC motor controller
    • 32V/10A DC bench power supply

    DC current from the power supply into the H-bridge motor controller would be switched (by the Arduino) into a square wave at a rate of 100–200 Hz (actual frequency depending on where it seems to operate more efficiently) to the transformer (2.3 Kg weight). The step-up transformer should be ok up to 600V output—or at least that's what the wire insulation seems rated for—which should be attained at about 32V input (32V*19 = 608V). It is my assumption that the transformer has a 1:19 turn ratio; it could be lower in practice.

  • Last few tests for the time being.


    Test 7

    Again about 98 g water. Preliminary run with just summary data.

    • [2020-02-16 20:12:32] Temperature gauge raised 2 Lego brick units
    • [2020-02-16 20:13:13] Start 21.1C 0.05A 380V
    • [2020-02-16 20:15:13] End 25.8C 0.04–0.05A

    Results

    • Input: 380V*0.045A=17.1W
    • Temperature rise: 25.8 °C - 21.1 ° = 4.7 °C
    • Output: 4.184* 4.7 °C * 98g / 120 s = 16.0596W
    • Pout/Pin: 16.0596/17.1 = 0.9392


    Test 8

    Again after inverting electrode polarity but no other change. I made a video this time. Unfortunately the temperature gauge turned off automatically in the last few seconds, but I enabled it soon after that. At the end of the test 86% of the heat could be recovered.



    Test 9

    Inverting polarity again. Heat recovery was about 88-90% after 120 seconds.




    Video of Test 9


    Latest spreadsheet with manually sampled data from the videos attached.


    Preliminary observations

    It looks again that thermocouple placement might be the most important parameter here and that electrode polarity might not have that much of an impact as speculated.