Takahashi: Enhancement of Excess Thermal Power in Interaction of Nano-Metal and H(D)-Gas

Quote from Shane D.

ask first before inserting foot in mouth?

FOOT IN MOUTH is serious condition

Orthopedic foot surgery that is of reconstructive nature requires comprehensive data collection about patient

And sometimes strong

leg pulling

Takahashi is a consultant who has offered good guidance in the past

A second expert opinion RE:foot extraction may be needed in this serious case..if it persists

Quote from LeBob

This could be more than politics and avoiding nuclear haters.

The authors have not concealed 'nuclear'

"We conceive that only a portion of transferred D-atoms was attributed to some unknown new condensed matter nuclear reactions

(theoretical candidate is the CCF/TSC model [13, 14, 15])

. Therefore, real specific reaction energy must be much larger to be over several MeV/D level as nuclear reaction level.

But they are not on an iconoclast mission..

I think what they seek/want most is funding for the next few years..

As far as Holmlid's dense H.. The anomalous TC4 behaviour is still unexplained after almost a year

Possibly Takahashi et al might consider a dense H reaction however this might conflict with their biases

After that, RC temperatures have reached at some equilibrium state as seen in Fig.3.

However, to our surprise, TC4 temperature suddenly decreased with ca. 100 °C negative spikes. In our conclusion by discussions [11],

lower temperature hydrogen (D) gas in lower peripheral region of RC near oil-inlet would have blown up suddenly to make up-steam of colder convection gas flow.

In the 4th day of PNZ10rr #1-4 run, TC4 temperature drew chaotic oscillation with smaller negative spikes and higher repetition as shown in Fig.4.

Quote from LeBob

Unless something similar to what Holmid is experimenting is happening in the powder it would work to posit H2* formation and novel H/metal pico-hydrides would definetely fall within this range along with a slightly increased rate of standard nuclear reactions.

Until some time ago the net gain was 1000eV/hydrogen and it was obvious the reaction was pretty much H*/D* formation only. But the new graphs shows a starting point at 1000eV an then goes to much higher energy gains what is proof for LENR happening.

Quote from RobertBryant

The authors have not concealed 'nuclear'

"We conceive that only a portion of transferred D-atoms was attributed to some unknown new condensed matter nuclear reactions

(theoretical candidate is the CCF/TSC model [13, 14, 15])

. Therefore, real specific reaction energy must be much larger to be over several MeV/D level as nuclear reaction level.

But they are not on an iconoclast mission..

I think what they seek/want most is funding for the next few years..

As far as Holmlid's dense H.. The anomalous TC4 behaviour is still unexplained after almost a year

Possibly Takahashi et al might consider a dense H reaction however this might conflict with their biases

After that, RC temperatures have reached at some equilibrium state as seen in Fig.3.

However, to our surprise, TC4 temperature suddenly decreased with ca. 100 °C negative spikes. In our conclusion by discussions [11],

lower temperature hydrogen (D) gas in lower peripheral region of RC near oil-inlet would have blown up suddenly to make up-steam of colder convection gas flow.

In the 4th day of PNZ10rr #1-4 run, TC4 temperature drew chaotic oscillation with smaller negative spikes and higher repetition as shown in Fig.4.

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Interesting. The experiment was done both with hydrogen and deuterium. H runs with powder got more power out, wondering if the atomic density was higher as well. Deuterium would intuitively have higher rates of nuclear reaction but the hydrogen/protium infused samples did better exothermically. Pico-chemical reaction rates with H seem higher and easier than with D. My point wasn't to state that they don't consider MeV scale nucleon reactions as one source. I was stating that they leave options open wisely. Instead of putting cold fusion in large font in the header. A little hyperbolic but the point stands.

Quote from Shane D.

Thanks for posting this. Many do not realize you frequently communicate (go straight to the source) with the Japanese researchers. Maybe there is a lesson here for skeptics: ask first before inserting foot in mouth?

Yes, it does appear from your post that Takahashi and team, did in fact take into consideration all possibilities before concluding AHE. Including the hot debate item introduced by Ascoli in this thread.

What does appear from the Takahashi et al. paper "Repeated Calcination and AHE by PNZ6 Sample" (1) is that they were, as obviously expected, well aware that water may form inside their reactor: "If the heat generation by PNZ6 at RT is from reduction of calcined sample (namely from formation of D2O water by D2 + O reactions), …".

To see who put their feet in other's mouth, please just look at the reactions to the comment (*) in which I suggested this possibility as a simple explanation for the behavior of some temperature curves.

(1) https://www.researchgate.net/p…on_and_AHE_by_PNZ6_Sample

(*) Takahashi: Enhancement of Excess Thermal Power in Interaction of Nano-Metal and H(D)-Gas

Quote from Ascoli65

this possibility as a simple explanation

'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.'

However the seminary of assertion is not for me

I prefer to test everything

Has there been hint of Ascolian calculation on this THREAD?

Simple assertion is not sufficient explanation

Quote from RobertBryant

'Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.'

However the seminary of assertion is not for me

I prefer to test everything

Has there been hint of Ascolian calculation on this THREAD

Simple assertion is not sufficient explanation

Zilch hints of calculation. Although for argument sake faith/trust is an important part of healthy psychology and social/emotional wellbeing. Just know what/who to put faith in 😁🙏🏽.

Just for some context this paper pretty much summarizes my current position on "LENR", and anomalous heating from hydrogen with hydride forming metals in electrical discharge, in general. And I think this is what Takahashi is experiencing.

http://newenergytimes.com/v2/l…urementOfExcessEnergy.pdf

Also I may have put my foot in my mouth earlier, interestingly the energy output per atom in this paper with deuterium is higher than protium.

Akito Takahashi working from home..

4H TSC End State Life Time Simulation...

• The condensed cluster fusion as 4H/TSC condensation collapse to
induce the WS fusion and/or Ni+4p clean fission may be candidate of underlying mechanisms [3, 8].

• If effective life time of the 4H/TSC end-state-oscillation [3] will become more than 1 fs, observed heat power level [1, 2] can be
explained. By the present simulation by 1M time-steps, possibility of more than 1 fs effective life time is shown.

https://www.researchgate.net/p…-Life-Simulation-2rev.pdf

Gambarimashoo..!

Test PNZrr10 #1-4 - Mundane interpretation of TC4 curve

Quote from RobertBryant

Stupid.

such as asserting that airconditioning produces the oscillations in the Akito Takahashi calorimeter..

when the calorimeter is isolated from room air,

or that moisture is present in calcined fuel.

to name just two examples in 2020

of "serious loss of credibilty"

there is no art in creating doubt in science

by the foam master.. it is slapdash

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The composite graph at the center of the above jpeg was obtained by assembling some graphs taken from pages 10, 11 and 12 of the Takahashi's presentation at JCF20 (1) related to the test PNZrr10 # 1-4, started on September 2, 2019. Diamonds along the temperature curves mark moments and periods of the transient which are described in the following points:

0 - at the beginning of the test PNZrr10 # 1-4, the RC (Reaction Chamber) contains the water formed during test # 1-2. The water presumably formed in accordance to the mechanism described by the authors of the presentation, as illustrated in (*1) . Over the weekend this water had time to condense and leach through the dust to the bottom of the RC. The 4.87% oxygen in the 504g of PNZ10rr sample could have formed up to 1.4 moles of DO2, for a volume of about 25 cm³. The transverse area of the RC is 25 cm² (volume 500 cm³, internal height 20 cm), so if by hypothesis the water were all collected on the bottom it could form a layer of 2 cm (assuming a liquid fraction of 50% ). However, it is also possible that the condensation water was distributed over the entire height of the charge, wetting the dust contained therein;

1 - When the temperature of the lower layers of the powder reaches the boiling point of water at the pressure present in the RC (0.468 MPa), the water evaporates, increasing its volume by a few hundred times. The steam that is formed pushes upwards the interstitial water located at the upper levels. At the same time when the vapor passes through the higher levels of dust, which are still at temperatures below boiling point, it condenses. The overall effect of these 2 mechanisms is to raise the water present in the RC upwards, drying the lower levels of the dust;

2 - When the liquid layer has moved far enough away from the levels where RTD1 and RTD2 are located, the surrounding dust, now dry, can heat up more quickly than the upper layers;

3 - Subsequently, the upper layers of the powder also reach the boiling temperature, as shown by the curves of RTD3 and RTD4 placed respectively at 9 cm and 12 cm above the bottom;

4 - When the boiling temperature reaches the top of the powder, all the remaining water is concentrated on a layer on top of the powder and is boiling. As long as the upper flange remains colder than the boiling point, the steam condenses on its lower face and drop back to the powder surface, greatly increasing the heat exchange between the boiling water and the flange;

5 - The temperature of the upper flange, measured by TC4, therefore quickly reaches the boiling value and remains there during the vaporization phase of the water. During this period the vapor bubbles drag and eject the metal grains upwards, which partly stick to the lower face of the flange as shown in the photo on page 107 of the ICCF22 presentation (2);

6 - For about 25 minutes, TC4 remains perfectly constant at the boiling temperature, although TC2 and TC3, measured in contiguous areas of the RC cylinder, continue to rise. This typical behavior is the evidence that RC contains water, as already explained in (*2). This same behavior also indicates that the upper flange is thermally well insulated from the rest of the RC;

7 - After about 25 minutes all the water initially present in the RC is vaporized and then the TC4 starts to rise again;

8 - After a couple of hours the RC-calorimeter system reaches a state of substantial thermal equilibrium and all the temperature values become constant or almost constant, including TC4;

9 - At this point TC4 suddenly drops rapidly. The decline is much faster at first and then slows down in accordance to the Newton's law of cooling. The cooling speed is compatible with a sudden increase in the convective heat exchange between the pipe welded to the flange and the ambient, due to the switching on of the AC unit in the room, as explained in (*3). Subsequently, the temperature rises, following again the same Newton's law, returns to the previous equilibrium value. This warming phase is easily explained by theswitching off of the AC unit. These cycles are repeated over the days of the experiment and their trends are compatible with the conditioning needings of the laboratory, as explained in (*4).

The singular features shown at points 6 and 9 of the TC4 curve were explained by Takahashi et al. as related to AHE events of presumably nuclear origin, as reported at page 10 and 15 of their presentation (1). However, the above description of the PNZrr10 #1-4 transient provides a much more mundane explanation of what could have happened inside the reaction chamber.

Readers will decide which explanation is more ..., well, the readers will decide by their own.

(1) https://www.researchgate.net/p…_of_Nano-Metal_and_HD-Gas

(2) https://www.researchgate.net/p…_of_Nano-Metal_and_HD-Gas

(*1) Takahashi: Enhancement of Excess Thermal Power in Interaction of Nano-Metal and H(D)-Gas

(*2) Takahashi: Enhancement of Excess Thermal Power in Interaction of Nano-Metal and H(D)-Gas

(*3) The NEDO Initiative - Japan's Cold Fusion Programme

(*4) The NEDO Initiative - Japan's Cold Fusion Programme

Quote from Ascoli65

due to the switching on of the AC unit in the room

renaissance assertion from an artist faraway from science

the calorimeter.. including TC4 is thermally isolated from the room airconditioning

the slapdash artist reconceives their own intricate reality

unrelated to actuality and actual science.

Quote from Ascoli65

9 - At this point TC4 suddenly drops rapidly. The decline is much faster at first and then slows down in accordance to the Newton's law of cooling. The cooling speed is compatible with a sudden increase in the convective heat exchange between the pipe welded to the flange and the ambient, due to the switching on of the AC unit in the room, as explained in (*3). Subsequently, the temperature rises, following again the same Newton's law, returns to the previous equilibrium value.

Why do people that hold the belief that LENR is impossible like Ascoli post here ???

I did visit the room of Takahashi's reactor. The air condition can exactly measure 0.001 degree. When we 4 person did enter the room the temperature near the reactor rose by 0.017 degree.

It's about the best climatized room you can get. May be you once worked in a cheese factory...

Quote from Wyttenbach

Why do people that hold the belief that LENR is impossible like Ascoli post here ???

I feel he is confused and sincere, rather than fraudulent.

Quote from Wyttenbach

I did visit the room of Takahashi's reactor. The air condition can exactly measure 0.001 degree. When we 4 person did enter the room the temperature near the reactor rose by 0.017 degree.

It's about the best climatized room you can get.

I think you mean the climate control temperature sensor can measure to the nearest 0.001 deg C. The air conditioning thermostat triggers when the temperature rises or falls by 0.1 deg C, as reported in the message from Takahashi above. Yes, that is indeed about the best climate control you can get for a room. A small enclosed space such as the container in a top-notch Seebeck calorimeter can do better.

Constant temperature baths and constant temperature air chambers can keep the temperature in a more narrow range than a room, I think. The chambers have a lot of space to put stuff into. Here is a photo of one:

https://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=187#PhotosTMizuno

Quote from RobertBryant

renaissance assertion from an artist faraway from science

the calorimeter.. including TC4 is thermally isolated from the room airconditioning

the slapdash artist reconceives their own intricate reality

unrelated to actuality and actual science.

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In agreement with what I wrote, Takahashi confirmed the presence and operation of an AC unit (his words: "The MHE cabin is presicely air-conditioned by Spindol AC to be 25 plus minus 0.1 deg C.")

He also added: "And TC4 sensor is inside vacuum chamber (outer chamber with 25 deg C water cooling), so that there is no convection gas flow at TC4 point."

This sentence does not contradict what I wrote in my comment The NEDO Initiative - Japan's Cold Fusion Programme , that is: "Due to the experimental set-up, this increased h causes a rapid cooling of the H/D gas pipe, which is welded on the upper flange of the Reaction Chamber (RC), whose temperature is measured by TC4. This flange is probably insulated from the rest of the RC cylinder by a non-metallic o-ring, so that its temperature is much more sensitive to the temperature of the external pipe, rather than the temperature of the rest of the RC cylinder."

In other words, TC4 was sensitive to the change of temperature of the gas tube welded on the upper flange of the reaction chamber. This tube runs mostly outside the vacuum chamber cited by Takahashi, so its temperature is very dependant from the convective heat exchange with the room air. In turns, his coefficient is very dependant from the air velocity, which depends on the on-off status of the AC unit.

Furthermore, the amplitude of the TC4 fluctuations is in good quantitative agreement with this hypothesis, as shown in the jpeg attached to my comment The NEDO Initiative - Japan's Cold Fusion Programme .

Quote from Ascoli65

In other words, TC4 was sensitive to the change of temperature of the gas tube welded on the upper flange of the reaction chamber. This tube runs mostly outside the vacuum chamber cited by Takahashi, so its temperature is very dependant from the convective heat exchange with the room air

Show calculation .. rather than word pictures

slapdash artist..

Quote from Wyttenbach

Why do people that hold the belief that LENR is impossible post here ???

I did visit the room of Takahashi's reactor. The air condition can exactly measure 0.001 degree. When we 4 person did enter the room the temperature near the reactor rose by 0.017 degree.

It's about the best climatized room you can get. May be you once worked in a cheese factory...

The temperature of the gas pipe, which is welded to the flange whose temperature is measured by TC4, depends both on the ambient air temperature (which is stable at 25 °C) and on the convective heat exchange coefficient with the ambient air, the value of which, on the contrary, is by no means constant, because it varies considerably with the air speed, which in turn depends on the ON-OFF status of the AC unit.

Thermotechnic is far outside your area of expertise. Even farther than kindness and fairness.

Quote from RobertBryant

Show calculation .. rather than word pictures

slapdash artist..

The jpeg contained in my comment The NEDO Initiative - Japan's Cold Fusion Programme, linked twice in the above comments, already show the calculation.

No calculation. that is relevant

what is the mass of the flange ... the pipe

what is the heat flow rate..

conductivity heat transfer coefficients.. etc

full assumptions

not in pic artistry..

slapdash words are not calculation