Formation of Ultra Dense Hydrogen/Deuterium : Holmlid vs. LENR-Cars

  • Production of Ultra Dense Hydrogen has been described by publications of Em. Prof. Leif Holmlid over the last decade.

    The method Holmlid can be divided into 4 different states:


    Molecular Hydrogen >> Atomic Hydrogen >> Rydberg Hydrogen matter >> Ultra Dense Hydrogen


    The transition of Molecular Hydrogen into Atomic Hydrogen uses Palladium as a first 'catalyst'.

    The transition of Atomic Molecular Hydrogen into Rydberg Hydrogen matter uses a styrene catalyst type Shell S-105 (iron oxide catalyst doped with K ) as a second 'catalyst'.

    The transition of Rydberg Hydrogen matter into Ultra Dense Hydrogen occurs spontaniously, but there will be some conditions (pressure, temperature) required including e.g. a Nickel surface (third catalyst).


    I had a closer reading of LENR-Cars's Patent Application titled "method of producing energy from condensed hydrogen clusters" to better understand what UDH creation processes they are suggesting.

    This PA describes an example process that I like to translate into simple language from my understanding point of view (open for discussions).

    The Hydrogen stages describes are a little different:


    Molecular Hydrogen >> Protons >> Atomic Hydrogen >> Rydberg Hydrogen matter >> Ultra Dense Hydrogen


    The transition of Molecular Hydrogen into Protons suggests the use of a membrane containing e.g. a thin layer of Palladium, Platinum of similar catalysts. This membrane material is mentioned as 'primary material' and seems to direct to commercially available PEM Fuel Cell membranes.

    The transition of Protons to Hydrogen and then into Rydberg Hydrogen matter uses catalysts such as caesium, potassium, lithium, sodium, and/or rubidium (atoms having a low electronegativity).

    The transition of Rydberg Hydrogen matter into Ultra Dense Hydrogen uses a mentioned optional 'secondairy material' to facilitate condensation of the Rydberg Hydrogen matter, e.g. ruthenium, rhodium, iridium, and/or nickel.


    note: some corrections have been inserted, thanks to can (see below comments). I left the original text strikedthrough.

  • IMO, I see here an emerging interesting field for engineering. Concrete the application of 3D metal powder printing (laser sintering) to manufacture the structural setup and different catalyst layers to enable LENR reaction. All of this manufactured in one piece, including feartures for heat transfer / cooling, similar to a PEM fuel cell.

  • The transition of Molecular Hydrogen into Atomic Hydrogen uses Palladium as a first 'catalyst'.


    Where did you read that Holmlid's method comprises Pd as a first catalyst? The styrene catalysts he uses are also capable of dissociating molecular hydrogen into separate atoms (see further below).


    [...] The transition of Rydberg Hydrogen into Ultra Dense Hydrogen occurs spontaneously, but there will be some conditions (pressure, temperature) required including e.g. a Nickel surface (third catalyst).


    It is not Rydberg Hydrogen directly that is spontaneously transitioning to the ultra-dense form, but clusters composed of Rydberg (excited) Hydrogen in a specific state (circular state). Such clusters are called Rydberg matter.


    The transition to the ultra-dense form is apparently favored on metal and metal-oxide surfaces but also occurs inside the styrene catalysts used, and on their surface. Early 2010s papers from Holmlid's group were mainly focused on breaking such clusters formed on the surface of the catalysts with a pulse laser and perform various time-of-flight studies. So there's not really a tiered catalyst system similar to what you proposed, although its usage could be conceived to make the overall process more efficient.



    For a concise description of the processes involved have a look at one of Holmlid's recent patent applications here https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2018093312A1/ with particular focus for example to the excerpt below:



    Or you could also have a look at section 4 in the recently published review paper here: https://iopscience.iop.org/art…02-4896/ab1276#psab1276s4

  • Where did you read that Holmlid's method comprises Pd as a first catalyst? The styrene catalysts he uses are also capable of dissociating molecular hydrogen into separate atoms (see further below).


    I recall an early publication with a close-up photo of the gas nozzle where it described a palladium tube being pre-heated. This may be 'overkill' at that time. I have to dive into my Holmlid archive to find it.


    Thanks for the corrections. Holmlid's latest patent application is indeed a good reference (but may not contain all details).

  • I recall an early publication with a close-up photo of the gas nozzle where it described a palladium tube being pre-heated. This may be 'overkill' at that time. I have to dive into my Holmlid archive to find it.


    That "emitter" construction was first used here: http://dx.doi.org/10.1063/1.3514985 and it employed a platinum tube with a catalyst pellet on one end forming a plug, through which hydrogen (deuterium) was forced to flow. However ultra-dense deuterium was formed also in earlier and later studies with different constructions.



    The patent application I linked earlier for the more recently used "emitter" I doubt uses a Pt support for the catalysts (element 31).




    Thanks for the corrections. Holmlid's latest patent application is indeed a good reference (but may not contain all details).


    It's true that the patent application does not contain all details. It says nothing for example regarding catalyst preparation (the reader is mostly redirected to the existing catalyst literature on the subject) and the apparently crucial role of carbon on the surface of the catalysts and their surroundings for the formation of Rydberg matter and the ultra-dense hydrogen form.

  • Quote

    I had a closer reading of LENR-Cars's Patent Application titled "method of producing energy from condensed hydrogen clusters" to better understand what UDH creation processes they are suggesting.


    Holmlid dense hydrogen technology has similar problem like Randell Mills hydrino based technology: if they should generate an energy, then the resulting form of hydrogen should be thermodynamically very stable and widespread into account of this normal one. Which keeps me in belief, they're both bogus and if some energy generation is involved, then it's overunity effect. This doesn't imply, that dense hydrogen or even hydrino couldn't exist after all - but only as a metastable volatile form of matter.

  • Which keeps me in belief, they're both bogus and if some energy generation is involved, then it's overunity effect. This doesn't imply, that dense hydrogen or even hydrino couldn't exist after all - but only as a metastable volatile form of matter.


    May be you should start to read papers and not just spread opinions... UDH is stable and has been measured in detail by Mills.

  • In a nutshell, rather than using a styrene catalyst such as a K doped iron oxide with excited atomic H/D created at its surface somewhat indirectly, Lenr-Cars is using a more direct way through the desorption of atomic H/D from the bulk of a metal or metal oxide into a low pressure cavity. The desorption energy is increased either by a rapid increase of temperature in a dry cell or by electrolytic means in a wet cell. The latter step is required because the natural desorption of H/D from all metal hydrides/deuterides is never energetic enough to lead to excited enough atoms of H/D to form Rydberg matter. This method makes the link between most LENR/CF work (F&P, Storms, Mizuno, etc ...) and the seminal work of Holmlid.

  • It's true that the patent application does not contain all details. It says nothing for example regarding catalyst preparation (the reader is mostly redirected to the existing catalyst literature on the subject) and the apparently crucial role of carbon on the surface of the catalysts and their surroundings for the formation of Rydberg matter and the ultra-dense hydrogen form.


    That kind of thing is what the patent experts call 'process knowledge' - the things that you don't really need to reveal that are never the less crucial to the success or failure of a system.

  • That patent application seems mainly to focus on the design of the UDH generator and the motivation for it being like it is in the fact that accumulating the ultra-dense material produced makes triggering it with an external pulse more effective, rather than providing a complete method for its production, or at least that's how I see it.


    Another unmentioned issue is that the presence of magnetic fields (particularly changing) can negatively affect the transition to the ultra-dense form and that it's important to keep them down. This was—I was told—a reason why when Holmlid started probing UDH on surfaces away from the catalyst (which was indirectly heated with an AC current) he obtained better results and also started seeing larger amounts of ultra-dense protium, which seems more sensitive to these issues than deuterium.


    This might have particular relevance in LENR reactors which have a more integrated construction than the vacuum chambers used in Holmlid's UDH experiments.


    The recent open access review I linked earlier mentioned about this issue in general terms:


    Quote

    A magnetic field stronger than 0.05 T prevents the formation of H(0) (Andersson et al 2012). Thus the formation of the chain clusters is inhibited by the magnetic field. Since these clusters possibly are involved in the formation of the small clusters H3(0) and H4(0), the density of small clusters may also decrease strongly in a magnetic field. This means that it is difficult to selectively destroy or remove only the chain clusters in a magnetic field and still be able to study the small clusters H3(0) and H4(0) in the magnetic field. In fact both the interacting cluster forms H(0) and H(1) are suppressed in a magnetic field, as shown very clearly in figure 20. Instead, the lowest energy RM cluster form that can exist in the magnetic field is H(2), which is difficult to observe in other experiments probably since the material then is rapidly deexcited spontaneously to H(1) and H(0). This means that it is not absolutely clear that the small clusters H3(0) and H4(0) can exist in a strong magnetic field where the chain clusters disappear, since the small clusters may be few when the reaction path forming them is broken.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    It's somewhat more complicated, in that the ultra-dense hydrogen clusters where nuclear reactions take place are not superfluid (source), but apparently their formation involves those that instead are superfluid (as the excerpt I linked above points out).


    Sorry can , in parallel to your response I deleted my remark on the relation of superfluidicity of UDH and external magnet fields. I concluded the same.

  • A bit offtopic to this thread but still related to UDH formation: What would be the options for formation of UDH using plasma technology?

    Hydrogen plasma is an excellent source of atomic Hydrogen (think of atomic H welding equipment).

    Combining this with the presence of suitable catalyst(s) it should be possible to form UDH. (having Safire project in mind, and early demo of Andrea Rossi, showing plasma device).