Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

    • Official Post

    Rout et al don't seem to think it is ionizing radiation. The first paragraph of their Conclusion section ends with

    "The energy of the emissions from palladium hydride appears to be small, as it is able to affect radiographic films (>2 eV) and thermoluminescent dosimeters (>3 eV) but did not ionize (>10 eV, average 30 eV/ion pair) gases."

    From their description, I think that the Gordon lab should expect to pick up their posited ionizing radiation with a Geiger counter run over the working electrode when it is outside their assembly.

    They did in under very mild conditions, and it's directly related to temperature as shown by Gordon and Whitehouse, but nevertheless, the important and grossly overlooked fact is that there is an emission of some kind of radiation, this is the important fact, and if you care to see the presentation and watch the zoom discussion session, you will see why is relevant.

  • Rout et al don't seem to think it is ionizing radiation.

    Rout et al in 1996 did not use CR39..

    although as Wyttenbach has suggested this CR39 evidence .. needs tighter controls

    to eliminate cosmic radiation.

    it is suggestive of ionising radiation..

    .. more investigative techniques might be useful... eg. gamma spectrometry..

  • I want to thank everyone for their interest and comments. Anyone who has been working on "cold fusion" for more than 30 years has to have both a sense of humor and a thick skin so it's hard to imagine that any of your comments could be worse. With regard to our experimental results, we have learned some things and in the process, have learned that there are a lot more things that we don't understand. That said, we know that something is ionizing the gas. We don't know exactly how the gas is being ionized or the nature of the ionization that is produced.

    I am aware that some of you would like to conduct similar experiments so I will list some of the things that have worked for us so that those of you who are "skilled in the art" can conduct experiments to replicate our results as well as trying your own "improvements:" These are not detailed directions that would be required by a novice. We ask that you let us know what you achieved and what "improvements" you made.

    The cutaway drawing of the LEC cell shown in our presentation (vg # 5) lists the parts that we used. The epoxy that we used to seal one end of the cell (#6) is J-B Weld Original Formula Steel reinforced that is advertised to work at temperatures between 250 - 300C. I have found that a thin layer of this epoxy also works in lieu of the O-rings that were #7 on the drawing. The 5/16 - 24 thread was selected because that closely matched the id of the 1/8 inch nipple.

    We have used codeposition of the Pd-H for the preparation of the working electrodes. The plating protocol doesn't seem to be too sensitive to the details as long as a reasonable plating is produced. We have observed that plating a layer of Pd-H and then removing the electrode from the plating bath and letting it dry before codepositing another layer of Pd-H helps. Also, after it has dried we have found that heating the electrode to 250 to 300 C between plating layers also helps. When you think that the electrode is ready, remove it from the plating bath, let it dry for a few minutes and slide it in a pipe. Connect a voltmeter to see if any voltage is being produced. If not, plate another layer. If yes, assemble the cell, pull a vacuum, and refill with hydrogen gas. As shown in our presentation, heating the cell greatly increases the output.

    Please let us know your results and any techniques that you have used. These will be helpful in documenting the processes so that this could become the lab rat for people who are less skilled.

    • Official Post

    Much thanks for this Frank Gordon !!!

  • Did you used electrodeless plating way or the classic one ?

    • Official Post

    Thank you for being such a good sport! Most here already know of your extensive 30 year experience in the field, and those unaware know now.

    I see you are offering your assistance to those attempting a replication. Many of our members know their way around a lab (some are your colleagues from the "old guard"), and may very well take on the challenge.

    If so, would you mind if we dedicated a thread expressly for that purpose? Only of course if people raise their hands to volunteer. If none do, we can keep it on this thread for now.

    • Official Post

    I'm new to this but if a new thread would help focus the discussion and questions, that sounds like a good option.

    Thanks Frank Gordon , it helps keeping topics organized, within reasonable limits. I would really like if you can post a simple description of a co deposition protocol that you know works well enough.

  • While waiting on the new thread to be split off from this one, I would just note that palladium includes an isotope that is a beta emitter. 107Pd is a beta emitter that is present in trace amounts, and the 107Pd → 107Ag transition yields a 34 keV beta electron. That is 1000 times hotter than the upper limit of 30 eV mentioned by Bruce__H, so either the beta transition can be ruled out as the source of the ionization, or the upper limit, perhaps computed indirectly from a population of ionized atoms in the chamber of the detector, is wrong. I mention all of this this because I would have liked the source of the ionization to be 107Pd. But it's probably not.

  • RobertBryant I did not clarify that I was wondering whether the beta decay had been "accelerated" as a side effect of the loading of the hydrogen. So more disintegrations per second than normal 107Pd in the wild. Needless to say, if beta decay were being induced somehow, this would be an interesting result requiring explanation.

    As to actual power, it might well be negligible in this case. The interesting observable to be explained or explained away is the ionizing radiation.

  • A codeposition protocol that I've successfully used starts with a 1/8 inch brass pipe nipple 4 inches long. Make sure it's clean and doesn't have an glue for a price sticker. Clean in a solution of vinegar and salt water for a minute or so. Rinse with distilled water and apply a flash plating of Ni using a commercial Ni plating solution such as KROHN Bright Nickel plating solution and using a nickel wire for the anode. This can be plated at a fairly high current level and only takes a minute or two to produce a thin layer of Ni. Rinse the nipple with distilled water. I use a plating bath of 0.15M LiCl in distilled H2O and Pt wire vertically spaced evenly around the for the anodes. Four or five vertical wires should be enough. Center the pipe nipple in the solution and add 3 to 4 ml of 0.03M PdCl2, 0.3M LiCl in distilled H2O. ( I typically mix 100ml of the PdCl2, LiCl solution in advance so its available to add it to the plating bath in doses of 3 to 4 ml at a time. The LiCl will help the PdCl to disolve but you may need to heat the mix and stur or shake it if it's in a bottle with a cap. When it's thoroughly mixed, The solution should be brown or amber.) For the initial plating, I start with a few uA /square cm of surface area on the nipple. For example, 50 microamps for an hour or so to establish an initial layer of Pd. After that, I increase the current to a few mA for several hours. At this point, you should be able to see the Pd deposit on the nipple. If the solution has cleared, add another 3 to 4 ml of the PdCl2, LiCl mix and increase the current to 10 mA. After several hours, the solution should clear although there will still be a light amber color to the plating bath. This might be a good opportunity to remove the cathode from the plating solution and let it dry and rest for several hours. Place it back in the solution and add 3-4 ml of the PdCl2, LiCl solution and increase the current to 20-30 mA. After a few hours, this might be a good time to remove the cathode, let it dry, and then heat it up to 250-300C. The exact temperature isn't critical. I use my gas bar-b-que grill for this step which takes about 30 minutes to reach temperature and leave it for another 10-15 minutes before removing the cathode and letting it cool. Repeat the process of adding 3-4 ml of the plating solution with the current at 50-60 mA, removing the electrode and letting it rest, and maybe heating it up. Also, you can insert the 1/8 inch plated nipple in a pipe to see if you can measure a voltage between the pipe and the nipple. None of these steps are precise and there seems to be a wide range that will produce an active electrode. Typically the plating process should be done in 3 to 4 days including rest times. Good luck.

  • has lit some fires

    I use my gas bar-b-que grill

    Thinking about that BBQ.but its too hot ..94 Fahrenheit. Thank's Frank..

    SigmaAldrich closed today for holiday ..Happy Australia Day(also called Invasion day.

    There was this random stuff from google too.


    1.1 The following chemicals were obtained from SigmaAldrich:
    palladium chloride, copper chloride, lithium chloride, sodium hydroxide, deuterated water, 0.25 mm diameter silver wire, and 0.25 mm diameter platinum wire.These chemicals and metal wires are readily available at any university."

    • Official Post

    I'm curious whether the activity is also seen when a non-platinum anode is used, e.g., gold or carbon.

    AFAIK the use of platinum is mainly for its mechanical and chemical stability under corrosion prone conditions, gold might also work well in the corrosion side but not in the mechanical side, and carbon would probably degrade too much and contaminate everything.

  • Curbina perhaps there's another anode material that can be substituted for platinum other than gold or carbon? The ever-present platinum anode is an overlooked variable that should be considered and controlled for.

    The reason I bring up the question — platinum has a trace alpha emitter in the form of 190Pt. An interesting possibility that would be nice to rule out is that this alpha emitter is what is indirectly causing the activity. The 190Pt → 186Os transition yields a 3.25 MeV helium nucleus. If these things occasionally fire off, you would get residual ionizing activity as the helium nucleus comes to a stop, but not necessarily keV electrons. It would be nice to remove platinum from the mix and either verify that the activity continues to be seen or that it is no longer seen.

    This is with the question in mind of whether the hydrogen loading is spiking the activity of the alpha emitter in this case (which would be new physics).

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