Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

    Can we agree that the replication photos shown may have given a different impression? I recognize that it's my fault for attempting a sloppy analogue version, though.



    Quote from can

    In any case if I go great lengths avoiding moisture traces on the thin spacers and quickly rinse and dry the cathode, I get no or very little voltage (few mV) and negligible current (0.1–0.2 µA).

    I think you should consider how long you are electrolysing the working electrodes for. Hours or days would seem to be preferable periods.

    Alan Smith

    I realize that, but when I initially saw a voltage and apparently even more easily reproduced the effect in subsequent attempts, I did not apply electrolysis for a long time at all. So, this is only a confirmation that the way I was doing it probably just causes an artifact. I don't rule out that a real LEC effect (showing a voltage with plates or sheets separated by a several millimeters distance) will become visible by following a proper electroplating protocol.

    Quote from can

    I dried the plate, but completely removing moisture is difficult within short periods, and the thin spacers I use will easily absorb it.

    A couple of suggestions:

    1) I verifyid that a little bit of moisture is not a problem (either with active electrode or dummy), no voltage arise due to moisture alone, as long as electrodes are well insulated (i.e. the spacers do their work);

    2) use plastic spacers: even electric tape (one layer) is good, its thickness is something close to 0.1 mm, and you can use multiple layers;

    3) use a wider gap: 0.1 mm can be too small and prone to isolation problems and artifacts. We tryed 0.5-0.9 mm, Frank tested even 6 mm. If you get the real effect, it should work good with these spacings;

    4) if you cannot obtain a voltage, this may be due to the duration and current used during the plating process. We all have used very small currents (mA) for very long times (many hours).

    I should try that someday. Unfortunately I haven't had yet luck with a FeCl solution, not even after plating for several hours (more than 4) at currents in the 10–20 mA range. When a voltage appeared upon subsequent testing, it seemed associated with impurities or moisture on the spacer materials (I also tried using electrical tape or scotch tape using 2 or 3 layers), and adding a new certainly clean layer removed the effect.


    I tried exploring other ways of plating Fe. A citric acid/iron citrate solution works also on Cu, in particular at high current, very quickly forming a smooth and durable thin layer. I tried doing a magnetic test and the layer was indeed magnetic. I recall reading others having problems with Fe plating on Cu using a FeCl solution, so this could possibly work.



    Brief video of magnetic test:


    However, when I tried it on Fe, following a similar procedure as done earlier using the same steel pieces (cleaned), it gave zero mV. Differently than with chloride plating, no quick oxidation occurs.


    At high current, citric acid-entrained vapor rises from the vessel and tends to make everything in the surroundings sticky, though. Also, if the cathode gets too hot, it decomposes the acid, producing an insoluble white precipitate. Your mileage may vary.

    Thanks can. I think you are still in too much of a hurry, and at some point you need to go over the Faraday limit to split water, theoretically 1.23V. Because of inefficiencies, you would need 1.8- 2V in the cell. (others may think differently).

    It's possible that I might have accidentally deposited a Fe-C alloy instead of only Fe. While looking for possible papers on citrate plating baths I found this one (open access):


    (PDF) Electrodeposition of Fe-C Alloys from Citrate Baths: Structure, Mechanical Properties, and Thermal Stability (researchgate.net)


    Some interesting excerpts:


    Quote

    Almost all studies on electrodeposition of Fe-C alloys use citric acid and/or ascorbic acid in the electrolyte in order to codeposit carbon. However, Fujiwara et al. showed that other hydroxycarboxylic and polycarboxylic acids are also suitable for the electrodeposition of Fe-C alloys [10,11]. Furthermore, they investigated the effect of other bath components [12].


    Fe-C increases hydrogen co-deposition compared to just Fe? This might be useful for LEC replications.


    Quote

    The codeposition of hydrogen is inherent to the electrodeposition of iron and its alloys in general [16], but was shown to be significantly enhanced in the case of Fe-C alloy deposition [17].


    The authors use a higher solution pH compared to other authors to avoid co-depositing too much hydrogen. It looks like if hydrogen co-deposition is what is desired for a LEC replication, pH should be low.


    Quote

    [...] The corresponding bath compositions and deposition parameters are shown in Table 1. The new electrolyte contains sodium sulfate as a conducting salt and the small amount of citric acid in the bath from [8] is replaced by a larger amount of tri-sodium citrate. Thus, the pH is increased leading to the reduction of hydrogen codeposition on the one hand, but the presence of ferric hydroxides on the other hand.


    They use however small amounts of citrates. The Fe ions come from FeSO4.7H2O (which I should get eventually). In my quick test above there were some from ferric citrate formed from steel pieces and a bit of hydrogen peroxide help.

    We record voltage and current, so we have IONS into our cells.



    So we have ionization of the gas.



    It is unlikely that it is energetic particles that produce this ionization, otherwise it would require considerable radioactivity. (Like pure polonium layer on the glass)



    Palladium cathodes can release hydrogen atoms. We demonstrated this with John Giles by making a special paper that changes color in the presence of atomic hydrogen / After loading with deuterium, a palladium cathode leaves its mark on the paper.


    F. David and J. Giles


    Possible Production of Atomic Deuterium By Palladium Cathode


    Materials Research Innovations 2008, VOL 12, NO 4 172



    But these atomic hydrogen atoms, while very reactive, are not charged. And this is a chemical reaction, it does not last long.



    But Frank Gordon observes voltage and current for several weeks.



    Subject to verification, it is possible that we have a photochemical (or "nucleochemical") reaction ON THE SURFACE of the palladium: the energy of nuclear origin released in the palladium undergoes a down-conversion, and on contact with palladium we would have the following reaction:



    H ° (adsorbed) à H+ (gaseous) + e-


    And : H2 (adsorbed) à H2+ (gaseous) + e-



    Palladium therefore takes a negative charge, and the metal electrode located in front therefore takes a positive charge when the positive H+ and H2+ ions (and the H3+ ions) are neutralized on the opposite metal electrode with the reverse reaction.




    This reaction would provide a convenient way to convert the energy released by LENRs into electricity.

    Much of recent discussion about LEC theory depends on production of anions and cations in the gas. If there is a radiation source, the anions and cations would result from the ionization trails. The hope for many forum members is that some other radiation than those current known is the source of these ions. The paper by Rous et al shows this might be the case. If "strange" radiation then LENR happens and LEC could be the work horse for LENR experiments.


    The LEC voltages parallel voltage expectations where water replaces the gas. It is easy to be discouraged that a small amount of water clings to across the electrodes and therefore LEC voltage though to be due to radiation is due to an electrolyte. So, forum member have encouraged experimenters to try to go to drier electrodes. Unfortunately, the active factor for voltage seems to have a short life. Further, there are concerns that the more efficiently one removes the water after plating, the lower the voltage.


    Perhaps the active factor is something that stabilizes ions in the gas phase. Particular, if one had a gaseous form of water (not steam not condensable to water vapor) that could stabilize ions. There is a patent that claims of such a form of water. Although they don't claim it to make an electrolyte of air or hydrogen.


    U.S. Patent 10,259,712, entitled “Method of Stabilizing Compounds in Water, Water Compositions Thereby, and Articles Containing Said Water Compositions”, filed by Robinson B. Gourley, Sarasota, FL., patent published in the federal Patents Gazette on April 16, 2019


    I believe this other form of water can be expected from electrolysis. It is not unreasonable that it is the active factor in a LEC. If so then plating would be unnecessary for an LEC. Just have two electrode that can be oxidized and reduced respectively and add this new form of water as a gaseous electrolyte. Just saying it would be a try.


    I am of the opinion that this new form of water originates because of nuclear reactions (based on mass and energy balances on "AquaFuel"). Therefore LENR in metal may produce this new form of water from water's standard form. LENR with a LEC would not be dead if this experiment were true. It would just speed up examination of materials that produce nuclear active environments and speed the progress to a more unified understanding of nuclear reactions of LENR.


    I respectfully suggest this twist in the plot is worth a look see.

    Drgenek, usually no water at all is involved in the LEC during its operation. I dryed very carefully the WE before inserting spacers (that were dry and hydrofobic) and putting it into the CE. As far as I know Alan and Matt did the same, and Frank even dryied the WE (the Pd plated one) in an oven and also tested the device at -55°C, where no liquid water or humidity are present for sure. The possibility of moisture in electrodes and spacers is however a pitfall that has to be considered by every experimenter.

    The obtained voltage is not related to the amount of water and/or humidity, it is somewhat dependent on the involved metals and on the state of the internal gas.

    Quote from Stevenson

    The obtained voltage is not related to the amount of water and/or humidity, it is somewhat dependent on the involved metals and on the state of the internal gas.

    I could not agree more. The metals likely provide half cell redox potentials. The states of the internal gas are likely chemical states. Mostly likely these are super magnetic states of molecules. Some of the atoms involved are capable of magnet to magnet bonding. If there is a nuclear active site, then oxygen, nitrogen, and hydrogen can be activated to super magnetic states. I have proven this by mass balance and stoichiometric from the data of Santilli's intermediate fusion patent application. I understand you may be offended by such a strong statement and may have a dislike of claims of magnetic based chemistry. I did not meant to imply that water had to be involved. I suspect any form of gas with magnetic based bonds will do.


    When gas is produced by electrolysis, likely super magnetic gas is produced also. The dried gas from electrolysis will likely accomplish the same effect as electroplating does in metal arranged to measure LEC. Such an experiment moves away from the mess of electroplating and focuses on gas phase where the effect resides.

    Quote from Drgenek

    I understand you may be offended by such a strong statement and may have a dislike of claims of magnetic based chemistry.

    Don't worry, I don't care at all about theoretical views at this time: my opinion is that we simply don't have enough experimental data to solve the puzzle, so all hypothesis are admitted.


    Quote from Drgenek

    The dried gas from electrolysis will likely accomplish the same effect as electroplating does in metal arranged to measure LEC. Such an experiment moves away from the mess of electroplating and focuses on gas phase where the effect resides.

    This is what I like after any theoretical hypothesis: the possibility of proving or disproving it experimentally!

    This is not difficult to test and it would be very relevant if true. Maybe i will try it in the next days.

    I discussed 'next steps' with Biberian. We agreed that a very simple test is critical proof. We have not had time to do this yet - the test is to take a working LEC from air, to full vacuum, and then back inyo a hydrogen atmosphere. A good result would be - some voltage in air, no voltage in vacum, a higher voltage in hydrogen.

    Perhaps of use...

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