Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

Quote from Frank Gordon

Following the hot spot video, there are a few slides showing pressure and temperature spikes that were obtained by codepositing Pd onto a ferroelectric transducer which will record both pressure and transient temperature.

Really nice presentation Frank!

Very interesting that the mini explosions shown in your paper are very similar to the one I recorded! Same timescale and shapes, even if they are collected in two different (but related) devices and with different means. I will retrieve and publish here some of the "click" that I recorded that looks like the one zoomed in the paper. It is quite evident that the underlying phenomenon is the same...

Quote from magicsound

I looked at Frank's LEC sample with an Optris IR camera, and saw nothing above the background temperature. At 320x240 pixels it's probably too coarse to be useful even close to the device.

Yes, same impression... Have you tried to observe the active sample on the SEM? Probably active sites will be visible either for the electric field perturbation and/or for the emission of some form of radiation.

Or possibly cratering....this is one of mine (not LEC) from awhile back.

Quote from JedRothwell

Spread over the entire device, that would be too small for you to detect, wouldn't it?

Yes, for sure IF its isothermal. But small hot spots might be visible and that's why I mentioned the limited resolution. The spec for the camera is 382 x 288 pixels, and the 2 cm dia.active area of the sample was about 250 pixels wide. So each pixel saw slightly less than 0.1 mm square area. That's still a lot of territory at the atomic level.

Do you know what the capture time of your camera is? Any hotspots are on a very thermally conductive surface, might any heat be dissipated so fast your camera - which is possibly damped to reduce jitter. Just a thought.

Quote from JedRothwell

So the camera is looking at the inside surface? I guess if the reaction occurred in microscopic sites you might see it briefly before the heat spread out, conducted to the surrounding metal. Conduction happens at the speed of sound so the camera has to be quick.

I was thinking the camera is facing the outside of the cell. By the time the heat reaches the outside surface, it would be spread out far and wide from the point of origin. The hotspots in the video by Pam Boss are visible because the camera is focused on the reacting electrode metal surface. See:

https://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=952

Why do you need a counter electrode involved? Once treated, a flat plate should be emitting radiation even as it just sits in the open air. Is that not right?

Quote from Bruce__H

Why do you need a counter electrode involved? Once treated, a flat plate should be emitting radiation even as it just sits in the open air. Is that not right?

You are mixing different topics, this particular topic was brought up by the latests comments from Stevenson that he took a look with an IR camera and found That the WE was cooler than the surrounding air, then Frank Gordon brought up some older observations in different systems that had detected active spots. The observations of hot spots on electrolytic cells brought by JedRothwell are well known and it comes up in the context of how it has been possible to image and detect active spots in LENR systems rather than if the LEC produces hot spots or not.

Quote from Curbina

You are mixing different topics, this particular topic was brought up by the latests comments from Stevenson that he took a look with an IR camera and found That the WE was cooler than the surrounding air, then Frank Gordon brought up some older observations in different systems that had detected active spots. The observations of hot spots on electrolytic cells brought by JedRothwell are well known and it comes up in the context of how it has been possible to image and detect active spots in LENR systems rather than if the LEC produces hot spots or not.

Sure. I understand all of that. But my reading of MagicSound's post is that he simply imaged a working electrode that Frank Gordon sent him. I assume that the electrode was just sitting out on some surface at the time and not assembled into a working cell. Maybe I am wrong.

Treated metal is said by Gordon and Whitehouse (in their original video presentation at the beginning of this thread) to be emitting some sort of radiation at a rate corresponding to 10^12 Bq/cm^2. Assembling everything into a cell is just a way to measure the radiation. But I assume that the metal radiates away even if not assembled into a cell. So directly imaging a flat plate of treated metal is a reasonable thing to do. It further seems to me that some sort of thermalizing material placed or painted onto the plate would help in this.

Quote from Bruce__H

I assume that the electrode was just sitting out on some surface at the time and not assembled into a working cell. Maybe I am wrong.

Well that’s the idea, The cell only allows this radiation be harnessed by means of capturing the current that is generated by the ionization, but the radiation of whatever it radiates is permanent at least with co deposited Pd and other metals that Alan Smith has tested, the iron codep is short lived only due to rust.

Now, finding this emission through IR sensitive images is what it is being discussed here and your idea of thermalizing it is good, but assumes it can be thermalized.

So far the only traditional method of finding radiation that has worked is the x ray sensitive film fogging (which has been done at BARC in a time integrative fashion That points out that the entire surface emits “something”) and then there’s the fact that it ionizes gases to create the current observed.

What exact kind of radiation is being emitted and what is the best way to image it, is what remains elusive.

Quote from Curbina

Now, finding this emission through IR sensitive images is what it is being discussed here and your idea of thermalizing it is good, but assumes it can be thermalized.

I assume that anything found capable of blocking the radiation is at least a candidate for a thermalizing material. For instance, as per the paper by Rout et al., aluminized polycarbonate.

Quote from Bruce__H

I assume that anything found capable of blocking the radiation is at least a candidate for a thermalizing material. For instance, as per the paper by Rout et al., aluminized polycarbonate.

I agree, but again, this assumes it can be thermalized. The more “outside the box” ideas about what this radiation is means this is a type of radiation that is a league on its own, and it doesn’t behave as expected in the thermalizing sense.

Quote from Bruce__H

I assume that anything found capable of blocking the radiation is at least a candidate for a thermalizing material.

Saran food wrap blocks the gas ions from escaping for sure. Cell voltage drops to Zero with that interposed between plates. But I do suspect that thermal events here are too fast for the camera to detect. I'm waiting to see if magicsound has any ideas about that.

Quote from Bruce__H

Why do you need a counter electrode involved? Once treated, a flat plate should be emitting radiation even as it just sits in the open air. Is that not right?

Well, it produces a current when paired with another electrode even when it has been left solo overnight. But since we don't really understand what the mechanism is - beyond 'something' that can ionise gas or vapour very effectively - we don't really know what conditions are required to make the magic happen. After all, the energy in a battery stays there until you give it somewhere to go.

100 mega watts per Femto second is how many micro joules... Just wondering.

Heat on a nano ultra fast time scale is...

Different.

Hundred Micro-Joules Level High Power Chirped Pulse Amplification of Femtosecond Laser Based on Single Crystal Fiber

December 2017 IEEE Photonics Journal PP(99):1-1

DOI:10.1109/JPHOT.2017.2780197

Ihttps://www.researchgate.net/publication/321638266_Hundred_Micro-Joules_Level_High_Power_Chirped_Pulse_Amplification_of_Femtosecond_Laser_Based_on_Single_Crystal_Fiber

Quote from Alan Smith

Well, it produces a current when paired with another electrode even when it has been left solo overnight. But since we don't really understand what the mechanism is - beyond 'something' that can ionise gas or vapour very effectively - we don't really know what conditions are required to make the magic happen.

The Rout et al paper (https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RoutRKreproducib.pdf) claims that samples of treated metal fog radiographic film without the benefit of counter electrodes and so on.

Quote from Alan Smith

Do you know what the capture time of your camera is? Any hotspots are on a very thermally conductive surface, might any heat be dissipated so fast your camera - which is possibly damped to reduce jitter. Just a thought.

You're right: the frame rate of the camera is quite low but it uses a bolometric sensor, so it integrate the radiation during each frame time. In any case, this has more or less an averaging effect that will hide the spike. This is something that I have not considered but that may affect the result...

Quote from JedRothwell

The electrode, flat plate or cylinder should be called "active surfaces" I guess.

Frank Gordon always refers to it as the 'working electrode' WE - I have also adopted a companion term for my own notes, 'passive electrode' - PE.

The use of 'passive' is not absolutely correct, but does have the virtue of being understood by most.