Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

Quote from Alan Smith

But I do suspect that at some level the hydrogen loses its electron when inside the metal, and becomes a naked proton, only regaining it when it re-emerges. And a naked proton could actually go deep into metals normally considered not to adsorb/absorb H but without affecting their gross physical structure in a readily detectable way.

'Ye olde theories' did indeed talk about bare protons swimming around within the electron clouds of the bulk metal lattice. There may still be some portion of truth in that model - as well as in all the others (migration to grain boundaries, H2 recombination, etc).

For years I had been relying on a fairly basic rule of thumb that low carbon steels were hardly affected, but had become fairly paranoid over the behaviour of high tensile alloy steels, when exposed to any form of hydrogen (gaseous, or aqueous) - after experiencing some nasty (and potentially catastrophic) component failures.

Interestingly, the webinar presenter was claiming that practically any metal or alloy could be affected. This was despite the fact that there has been a high pressure hydrogen pipeline in operation, linking various German chemical plants, since 1939 - and is apparently still functioning well (someone in the live comments claimed that it was made out of mild steel).

Well, interesting comment.

Alan Smith shared here recently a link for a very cheap SS foam.

However in the past i asked this company below and they suggested me an A4 size for 200 dollars.

Cheap Copper Foam,Iron Nickel Foam,Titanium Foam,Zopin Group Metal Foam Factory

Does it exist really different qualities or these chinese companies are a kind of mafia ?

Anyway thank you to magicsound for his relevant discovery.

Quote from Frogfall

I would not be surprised if some manufacturers of stainless steel mesh also give it a shiny 5 micron 'BZP' (bright zinc plate) coating, purely for cosmetic reasons. It all depends what it was sold for, I guess. It certainly wouldn't help with corrosion resistance, and could actually make things worse in high temperature applications. But as most of these samples were produced on a very tight budget, its possible that the mesh was sold for domestic decorative purposes rather than as an engineering material.

Quote from Alan Smith

A lot of it sold for vaping

Good grief. Is there no end to the daft things people do to their lungs?

I assume the mesh is heated - to vaporise the liquid crap. But there could be more than just the liquid droplets going into their lungs.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_fume_fever

Quote from Frogfall

Interestingly, the webinar presenter was claiming that practically any metal or alloy could be affected. This was despite the fact that there has been a high pressure hydrogen pipeline in operation, linking various German chemical plants, since 1939 - and is apparently still functioning well (someone in the live comments claimed that it was made out of mild steel).

I suspect that in 1939 it was made from cast iron for the big stuff and malleable iron (trade term) for the small stuff. They very recently replaced the 1934 gas mains along my road and they were all flanged and bolted cast iron pipes in sections maybe 10 meters long.. Our (pre North Sea) town gas contained a lot of hydrogen -AKA producer gas - by blowing steam and air alternately through red-hot cola in iron retorts. But at an over-pressure of 25-30mB embrittlement is not a big worry

Quote from Alan Smith

I suspect that in 1939 it was made from cast iron for the big stuff and malleable iron (trade term) for the small stuff.

I suspect you are right about the German pipeline (Temperguss!)

I was actually going to post a question during the webinar about the old town gas equipment - being as that was mostly H₂ & CO - but they were swamped with questions already. I can remember some initial problems related to seals drying out, when they made the transition to North Sea Gas - which was attributed to differences in moisture levels between the gases. However, as they didn't dig up and replace every pipeline across the country, they must have found a satisfactory solution. And yes, I'm sure the low pressure distribution, and LP gasholder storage, would have helped.

The modern gas grid uses the long-distance pipelines themselves, at high pressure, for storage. That's why they have been able to demolish so many of the old gasholders. I guess if the high pressure pipeline storage is found to be incompatible with hydrogen - then they will have to start rebuilding gasholders again

I've got a book somewhere that has details of the German hydrogen network. I'll have to see if I can find it (some of my books are still crated after my last house move).

i asked again the company i mentioned then they replied me that:

Hello Dear David

Each company will have some differences in the price of SS foam. For example, some thicknesses of their companies are cheaper, and some thicknesses are more expensive, such as 6mm or 10mm or 20mm.

And it is not ruled out that the products sold at low prices on the market are SS foams made of steel raw materials with lower purity and secondary recycled steel.

Quote from Alan Smith

Thoughts on the LEC from Ed Storms, who is working on something derived from the basic concept.

Hi Alan, Thanks for noting my idea in your paper.

I would like to clarify what I think this behavior means. Gordon is measuring a source of energetic electrons. These electrons will create a voltage across the cell that is related to the resistance between the two electrodes. Unless an external resistor is used, the effective cell resistance would be determined mainly by the number of the ions that are produced as the electrons pass through the gas. A vacuum does not work because H2 is required to cause LENR, which is the source of the electrons, not because ion creation is not possible.

Gordon has provided the final missing link to the correct understanding of how the nuclear energy is dissipated from the LENR process. The creation of H4 from the fusion of two D generates the energy. Or, when H is used, the reaction produces D instead of H4. In both cases, an equal number of emitted electrons are emitted by each fusion event. This energy is dissipated by the electrons that are present at the site where LENR occurs; by nothing more. Apparently, LENR is easier to produce at low level than any one had imagined. We now have a method to explore LENR, although at a low rate of reaction. I suggest people consider this explanation rather than keep hunting for the keys under the lamp post.

We now know that H can produce LENR, so the success of using this isotope here is not a surprise.

Ed

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AlainCo

From another thread:

Quote from Curbina

Alan Smith , just finished watching what the future generations will remember as Alan Smith's LEC Marathon. Very well presented both your outstanding work and on behalf of Frank/Harper and Alan Goldwater.

I really like the ensuing discussion, and the exchange of ideas. Also that Francesco Celani has also independently observed the same phenomena in his gas loading reactor, but it takes longer to manifest.

Francesco Celani measured a spontaneous voltage along the ends of his constantan active wires, which are also resistors:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/282646657_Observation_of_macroscopic_current_and_thermal_anomalies_at_high_temperature_by_hetero-structures_on_thin_and_long_Constantan_wires_under_H_2_gas

Would attempting to measure a voltage across a LEC working electrode and a resistor of some sort in series show anything meaningful? I think it would be something akin to how Celani observed the voltage in his case. Probably it would have to be in the MOhm range here.

Quote from can

From another thread:

Francesco Celani measured a spontaneous voltage along the ends of his constantan active wires, which are also resistors:

https://www.researchgate.net/p…antan_wires_under_H_2_gas

Would attempting to measure a voltage across a LEC working electrode and a resistor of some sort in series show anything meaningful? I think it would be something akin to how Celani observed the voltage in his case. Probably it would have to be in the MOhm range here.

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I think the voltage is always measured across a resistor, the presentation of magicsound says the 0,6 mV are measured across a 10 MOhms.

Curbina

Normally in LEC replications the voltage is measured between the Working Electrode (WE) and an inert counterelectrode across a gap via spacers, and the multimeter has an internal impedance of usually 1 or 10 MOhm, as per this diagram:

What I proposed in the previous comment was instead observing if a voltage could be shown across the WE as it is across the wire in Celani's case.

Since the WE will most likely have a negligible resistance due to its geometry (cylinders, bars, plates, etc), a resistor would be needed here for that.

Quote from can

Curbina

Normally in LEC replications the voltage is measured between the Working Electrode (WE) and an inert counterelectrode across a gap via spacers, and the multimeter has an internal impedance of usually 1 or 10 MOhm, as per this diagram:

What I proposed in the previous comment was instead observing if a voltage could be shown across the WE as it is across the wire in Celani's case.

Since the WE will most likely have a negligible resistance due to its geometry (cylinders, bars, plates, etc), a resistor would be needed here for that.

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I would not expect any voltage across the WE - but you can measure it directly with no resistor - it would be a low impedance circuit an insensitive to whatever load impedance you presented.

Whereas the LEC is a high impedance circuit and the measured voltage reduces as you give it a lower impedance load.

Quote from THHuxleynew

I would not expect any voltage across the WE - but you can measure it directly with no resistor - it would be a low impedance circuit an insensitive to whatever load impedance you presented.

In tests performed last year, after charging with electrolysis, a WE in my case would typically show a voltage in the hundreds of mV range if I applied a thin layer (of non-negligible resistance) of diluted electrolyte solution or even just impure water between it and one of the multimeter probes. I assumed this was some chemical effect, not a LEC effect.

Of course, there would be zero voltage by touching directly the WE with both multimeter probes.

Then, by replacing the electrolyte/water with a resistor (making sure the surfaces are clean and dry), would a voltage appear? And if yes, what would that imply?

Celani's treated constantan wires would spontaneously show a voltage like this, unpowered, after cycles of heat and hydrogen, and this effect has been compared to that of the LEC. As far as I recall his wires generally have a resistance end-to-end in the tens of Ohms range.

can.

The closest I have come to measuring voltage across an electrode is to look for the presence of a voltage between an electrode and an earth. This was done to check for voltages caused by oxidation/reduction effects on the electrode surface creating a pure battery effect. After all, if you hold a high enough positive voltage lead in one hand and earth the other you will feel the effect.

When I tried this, voltage between the working electrode and ground was zero, likewise for the counter electrode. But there was a voltage between them when the two electrodes were made into a LEC. So no, one hand clapping cannot be heard.

ETA - Francesco Celani's voltage along the wire is caused by something called electromigration.

Alan Smith

If I try to connect the ends of my multimeter respectively to an earth connection and a metal piece which might show that chemical effect mentioned above (after adding slight amounts of tap water on the surface), I get around 0 mV. If instead I connect the multimeter across the metal piece through the water on the surface, I get a couple hundred mV. Again, I think in my case this just is a galvanic effect; without water, I get 0 mV in either case.

I think measuring voltage between Earth and a floating voltage source may always end up showing around 0V. I tried also with the positive pole of an AA battery and my DC power supply (with floating outputs) turned on at around 20V.

It might very well be that I'm not understanding correctly something here, however.

What about this test?

Charge two separate pieces of metal at the cathode in the same electrolytic cell, trying to keep current density even. Then, after a predetermined period of electrolysis get them out of the cell and measure the LEC voltage between them. In other words, one of the cathodes will now act as the counterelectrode in the voltage measurements, instead of using a non-electrolyzed material.

If the LEC effect works as expected, voltage will increase because now even more ions (twice as much?) will be produced. If it's something else, it might instead decrease.

It might depend on the earth. I am using an instrument earth - a large copper plate buried in wet ground with a heavy cable running to the work table. If you use the earth point supplied by the grid wiring in your house you might get a different effect. Not all earths are equal.

ETA don't try putting one finger into the live terminal and the other into the earth. You will detect a voltage then.

Quote from Alan Smith

When I tried this, voltage between the working electrode and ground was zero, likewise for the counter electrode.

This proves that the effect is not real. In electro-chemistry you always use a reference electrode e.g. AgCl. If you connect two arbitrary substances you just get a polarization, based on the materials polarization power. In organic chemistry one uses this to say that one side of the reaction has charge 1.1 (electrophile side) and the other side 0.9 - what heuristically deals with this effect.

As said. For me any LEC experiment is only real LENR if you can produce energy W > all existing galvanic potential energies including air oxidation.

Mills could show it. LEC never so far. So please clear this hurdle!

Quote from Alan Smith

It might depend on the earth. I am using an instrument earth - a large copper plate buried in wet ground with a heavy cable running to the work table. If you use the earth point supplied by the grid wiring in your house you might get a different effect. Not all earths are equal.

ETA don't try putting one finger into the live terminal and the other into the earth. You will detect a voltage then.

What I'm saying is that to me it seems expected that measuring the LEC WE to Earth will show zero voltage, even assuming the presence of chemically-caused voltages: the same happens with other floating voltage sources like for example most low-power AC-DC wall adapters (it might not necessarily be the case with laptop power supplies).

If instead I try to measure the voltage across a ground-referenced voltage source (e.g. the 12V DC outputs of a desktop PC power supply) and Earth, I will see the voltage of that power supply.

Quote from can

What I'm saying is that to me it seems expected that measuring the LEC WE to Earth will show zero voltage

If the working electrode was continually generating electrons - by whatever means - then it would behave like a classic electrophorus. There will be a measurable voltage between the electrode and a decent earth connection. That is the reason for the test.

Further up the thread I had been asking about such a test with the electrolysed soft ferrocerium rod - as it was behaving oddly, compared to the other test electrodes.

Please do not harm any live cats, trying this.

Frogfall

Alan Smith and others have always measured zero voltage by doing so, as for example reported earlier. This should rule out the LEC being an electrophorus.

However, that the voltage is zero in this test does not rule out conventional effects, since man-made or chemical floating voltage sources can also behave the same. With a floating source, if you try to measure its voltage with a multimeter across earth, displayed voltage will start at maximum, then quickly (or not) drop to zero/earth depending on the impedance of the multimeter and that of the connection to earth.

I'm not saying here that the LEC does not work, only that this one test does not seem particularly useful for demonstrating that the voltage observed when using a counter-electrode is anomalous. Unless I'm missing something like for example what should the characteristics of a decent earth connection be.

EDIT: to clarify, with the above I mean measuring the voltage of the electrodes with Earth separately (one electrode at a time).