Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

    • Official Post
    Quote from Eric Walker

    Curbina perhaps there's another anode material that can be substituted for platinum other than gold or carbon? The ever-present platinum anode is an overlooked variable that should be considered and controlled for.


    The reason I bring up the question — platinum has a trace alpha emitter in the form of 190Pt. An interesting possibility that would be nice to rule out is that this alpha emitter is what is indirectly causing the activity. The 190Pt → 186Os transition yields a 3.25 MeV helium nucleus. If these things occasionally fire off, you would get residual ionizing activity as the helium nucleus comes to a stop, but not necessarily keV electrons. It would be nice to remove platinum from the mix and either verify that the activity continues to be seen or that it is no longer seen.


    This is with the question in mind of whether the hydrogen loading is spiking the activity of the alpha emitter in this case (which would be new physics).

    When loading D or H You can obtain anomalous effects in Pd thin films also, as Rout,

    Srinivasan and Garg showed in 1996, and more recently Alexandrov. Obtained with Pd and even with Molibdenum. There’s one thing of these emissions that is often missed and might explain many false negatives when using instruments to detect them, and is that the emissions are anisotropic, so you have to get an array of detectors in order to capture it or use a radio sensitive material close to the sample, otherwise it can easily be missed.

    My thoughts weren't an attempt to explain all anomalous effects in one go, e.g., in thin film experiments, or ones using molybdenum. My assumptions are as follows:

    1. Some of the experiments are poorly controlled and mistake artifact for something unknown
    2. Of the remaining experiments, there may be related but different phenomena (induced beta decay in one case, induced alpha decay in another, etc.)
    3. Within a single category of phenomenon, there may be different materials involved (platinum in this case, another element/isotope in another case, etc.)

    So the details of specific experiments matter a lot. I can relate to the desire to generalize. But first I think it's important to handle each combination of parameters (experiment type, materials used, observables, etc.) on its own terms. In this context, whether platinum is being electroplated onto the active surface that Frank Gordon is reporting on is an important variable to understand, explore, and control for. If the platinum is taken away, does Gordon still see the ionizing radiation? Different answers lead to different avenues for further exploration.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Eric Walker

    My thoughts weren't an attempt to explain all anomalous effects in one go, e.g., in thin film experiments, or ones using molybdenum. My assumptions are as follows:

    1. Some of the experiments are poorly controlled and mistake artifact for something unknown
    2. Of the remaining experiments, there may be related but different phenomena (induced beta decay in one case, induced alpha decay in another, etc.)
    3. Within a single category of phenomenon, there may be different materials involved (platinum in this case, another element/isotope in another case, etc.)

    So the details of specific experiments matter a lot. I can relate to the desire to generalize. But first I think it's important to handle each combination of parameters (experiment type, materials used, observables, etc.) on its own terms. In this context, whether platinum is being electroplated onto the active surface that Frank Gordon is reporting on is an important variable to understand, explore, and control for. If the platinum is taken away, does Gordon still see the ionizing radiation? Different answers lead to different avenues for further exploration.

    Frank Gordon came here to pass on his knowledge in the hope of spurring on replication attempts, not to be lectured. How about we trust he has thought these things out, and take it from there? After all, he has been at this 30+ years.


    Now, on to the replications...if anyone is interested. I am thinking this is so important it may be worthy of an email blast to get the communities attention. Potential lab rats don't come around very often, and I would hate to see this opportunity pass us by. Especially when we have the main author here, and willing to help guide volunteers through the process.


    So...any takers?

    Quote from Shane D.

    Frank Gordon came here to pass on his knowledge in the hope of spurring on replication attempts, not to be lectured. How about we trust he has thought these things out, and take it from there? After all, he has been at this 30+ years.

    I don't have any advice to give Frank Gordon, and certainly no lecture to offer him. My hope was to explain to Curbina why I was interested in the platinum anode used in the codeposition, which I was having a hard time conveying. Perhaps one day someone will look at this question. In the meantime, I'll try not to muddy the thread with tangential discussion.

    Quote from Shane D.

    I am thinking this is so important it may be worthy of an email blast to get the communities attention.

    Wait a bit. I think he is writing an organized recipe paper. You can upload that paper here, and I can upload it to LENR-CANR.org. That's better than fragmented discussions here or the speaker comments from the PowerPoint slides. The discussion here are also valuable, but you want to give people an organized, single reference to start with.


    The recipe paper can be revised and improved in response to questions and discussions. It does not need to be static.

    • Official Post
    Quote from JedRothwell

    Wait a bit. I think he is writing an organized recipe paper. You can upload that paper here, and I can upload it to LENR-CANR.org. That's better than fragmented discussions here or the speaker comments from the PowerPoint slides. The discussion here are also valuable, but you want to give people an organized, single reference to start with.


    The recipe paper can be revised and improved in response to questions and discussions. It does not need to be static.

    Thanks. We were looking for ways to capitalize on this opportunity, but looks like you and Frank are way ahead of us.

    I haven't checked this link for a couple days so I apologize for the delay in my response.


    With regard to the possibility that the LEC is a battery: A LEC has many similarities to a battery and we debated calling it a Hydrogen Ion Battery but a LEC is much more. A battery is basically two electrodes of different work function where metal ions are transported by well known chemical reactions through a liquid electrolyte in between the electrodes. The LEC does not have a liquid electrolyte and a LEC produces and transports gas ions. A battery is also a voltage source and a LEC acts like a current source. The output of a battery does not increase with temperature. A LEC has similarities with a nuclear or atomic battery without the hazardous radiation and they don't increase output with temperature. We settled on calling it a LEC,


    I'm working on a more detailed description but that will take some time. I reviewed the description that Pam Boss wrote for the Galileo project that Steve Krivit organize several years ago. It contained a lot more detail that a high school student with minimal knowledge of electronics or chemistry would need. The only guidance that I provided to Jean-Paul Biberian was to send the cell diagram. As I included in the presentation, he tried a rod of Pd-Ag alloy an it didn't work. I suggested that he needed to codeposit some Pd onto the rod to make sure it had vacancies that codeposition is know to produce. He did that and it worked. Jean-Paul is very experienced and knowledgable. In the case of Andrew Erickson, he was new to the field but had some technical knowledge. I sent him the drawing an description that is in the presentation and talked to him a couple times and he produced a successful active working electrode. I presume that most of the people in this forum are somewhere between Jean-Paul and Andrew in experience and knowledge so hopefully the information that I supplied on codeposition will be enough. If anyone is having trouble based on that description or has specific questions, please let me know. I would also like to know when people try to replicate and if they were successful or not. Based on the issues/problems in replicating the results, I can be sure to address those i the detailed description.

    • Official Post
    Quote from JedRothwell

    Wait a bit. I think he is writing an organized recipe paper. You can upload that paper here, and I can upload it to LENR-CANR.org. That's better than fragmented discussions here or the speaker comments from the PowerPoint slides. The discussion here are also valuable, but you want to give people an organized, single reference to start with.


    The recipe paper can be revised and improved in response to questions and discussions. It does not need to be static.

    David wants to put out an email newsletter on this, and Curbina has the rough draft done. Is it OK now to send it out? Got another newsletter draft on the NASA paper, and he may decide to combine the two.

    Quote from Curbina

    I strongly recommend reading the paper linked in Frank’s presentation (Rout, Srinivasan and Garg 1996 Fusion Technology)


    ...


    This paper is amazing, it even provided me with a new and important tidbit to some work I am doing right now, ...


    Just what is that tidbit, Sir? Can you provide more context about your work and the application of the tidbit?

  • barty

    Changed the title of the thread from “Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop.” to “Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop”.

    Frank asked me if I would try to reproduce his experiment. It took me a while to realize that it is not very complicated to do, so I did. My first attempt was with a 2mm Pd/Ag 10cm long rod inside a 6mm OD stainless steel tube. I put hydrogen and nothing happenned. I then did deposit a thin film of palladium by electrochemistry and re-did the experiment. This time a voltage appeared in hydrogen, and nothing under vacuum or in air. In order to amplify the phenomenon, I built two coaxial cylinders about 35mm in diameter and 10 cm long, then with hydrogen, the voltage went up to 640mV.


    An interesting point is that the voltage grows rapidly at the beginning and slowly afterwards. I measured the voltage with various resistors to check the power, and definitely, it is in the microWatt range.


    I pumped out the chamber to remove the hydrogen and put deuterium. Under vacuum, the voltage decreased with time during pumping, and reached zero. When I introduced the deuterium, nothing happenned, the voltage was zero. I thought that maybe deuterium is no good, so I switched back to hydrogen again. The voltage remained zero. Next day, the voltage appeared an kept growing.


    Definitely, it seems that the palladium film needs to be loaded with hydrogen to produce the effect. The first load is fast, but the second time it is slow. I could not continue this experiment because I needed the chamber for other purposes, but I plan to start again soon,


    This is not galvanic, because there is no contact between the two electrodes, there is only hydrogen gas and the palaldium deposit is crucial.

    • Official Post

    I think it’s important for all interested in replication to take a look at the patent application filed by Frank Gordon for the LEC concept, I have been reviewing the link here:


    https://uspto.report/patent/app/20200068690


    It contains a complete view of what the LEC is and what it could achieve with further development.

    • Official Post

    Much thanks jean-paul biberian ! Can you tell us a bit of the Pd plating process you used? To see how close or different It is from what Frank Gordon already recommended. Is to have a perception of how relevant it might be.

    I am very busy with my own experiments and all the discussions occuring in numerous places, so I usually don't get here. However, after reading a few comments, I thought that giving my own results will clarify the situation

    • Official Post
    Quote from jean-paul biberian

    I am very busy with my own experiments and all the discussions occuring in numerous places, so I usually don't get here. However, after reading a few comments, I thought that giving my own results will clarify the situation

    Thank you Jean Paul. Your post was timed perfectly, as a few hours ago we sent out the newsletter to officially start the Frank Gordon Replication (FGR) effort. We were going to put out something on this thread, but after seeing your post decided we did not want to overshadow what you said.


    There is already much activity behind the scenes to get as much talent onto this as we can muster. The staff has been excited about this for at least a week, and when Frank gave our newsletter (writtenn by Curbina) the go-ahead today, we jumped right on it.


    Now comes the hard part...getting people to invest the time to build, then test the device. That may seem easy, as we have so much experience represented among our members. But unfortunately, many are burned out after tackling other replications that did not go so well, and in some cases were instigated by imposters.


    This is so different though, we have high hopes. Frank is as excited as we are, and has committed to assisting volunteers through the process. That is a first. Plus, the cost is minimal, and he has already been replicated by 2 other very experienced scientists.

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