Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

Quote from Cydonia

Simply infrared will never been included in your software ?

Ionization energy of Oxygen, Nitrogen, Hydrogen and other common gases id in the range of 10 to 20 eV and 1000s kJ/mol, so IR do not fit well, in my opinion (otherwise the intensity would be very high, and this would be easily detected as heat).

Quote from Alan Smith

You might find this paper interesting, looking at different metal combinations (as 'air electrodes') abnd the effect of relative humidity on voltage generation. While I am not suggesting that you have a water vapour effect at all I think the choice of metal pairs here may be of interest.

Thank you! This paper seems very interesting. I will carefully read it tomorrow.

I agree with by James’ suggestion to the group to think about how the gas is being ionized. I encourage everyone to start by reading the papers by Rout, et. al. from BARC that were published in the early 1990’s. They are available in the LENR-CANR library. (Thanks Jed!) Search for Rout as first author or click on this link:

https://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=3018

The last publication dated 1996 is particularly interesting. The bottom line is that they were unable to identify the type of ionization that was fogging the film.

Harper Whitehouse and I have been discussing various concepts for how the ionization is being produced for well over a year. At this point, one hypothesis that we’re considering is that electromagnetic radiation is produced by the working electrode that impinges on the counter electrode producing energetic electrons via the photoelectric effect and the energetic electrons ionize the gas. Our calculations also indicate that the greatest density of ions occurs at or very near the counter electrode. We don’t know how the electromagnetic radiation might be produced but there is indication that vacancies, cracks, or other defects at the surface are involved. Fukai reported that codeposition will produce vacancies and super abundant vacancies and both James and Jean-Paul had experiments that didn’t produce any results until after they had codeposited Pd, by Jean-Paul, or Fe by James. Also, we know that the number of vacancies increases with temperature at approximately the same rate that LEC maximum current increases with temperature. As I posted in #238, based on the current that the LEC produces as a function of temperature, our preliminary calculations are that the gas needs to contain a steady state of 10^10 to 10^12 ions per cubic centimeter and in order to produce that steady state condition could require the production of 10^12 to 10^14 ion pairs per cubic centimeter per second. Lattice vibrations are in the THz range so the combination of vacancies and frequency might be able to produce the number of ions that are required to support the measured conduction. During a private conversation that I had with Martin Fleischmann while attending the 11th ICCF meeting in Marseille France, he mentioned that he thought that quantum electrodynamics (QED) might be involved. I look forward to your ideas.

Quote from Frank Gordon

Fukai reported that codeposition will produce vacancies and super abundant vacancies and both James and Jean-Paul had experiments that didn’t produce any results until after they had codeposited Pd, by Jean-Paul, or Fe by James.

This suggests that a thin codeposited layer plays a crucial role in getting a LEC to produce electricity.

I looked back in this thread and noticed that Stevenson reported no voltage present in post #155 when applying different metals for his CE. Am I understanding correctly that in that case the WE was not yet codeposited?

Since Fe or PD has been part of the previous experiments, it would help concluding that deposited layers are required to get the effect by using a solid Fe WE and report back the result (or PD but I understand this might be a budget issue ;).

If it appears that a thin codeposited layer is key in getting a LEC to produce electricity it would be interesting to know how thick a codeposited layer should be to perform best.

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

I looked back in this thread and noticed that Stevenson reported no voltage present in post #155 when applying different metals for his CE. Am I understanding correctly that in that case the WE was not yet codeposited?

Correct. Devices tested in post #155 were the control devices: different metals tested, but no plating. The result was no voltage and no current.

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

If it appears that a thin codeposited layer is key in getting a LEC to produce electricity it would be interesting to know how thick a codeposited layer should be to perform best.

Yes, the only difference between control devices and active device was the plating. So it is the plating process that allow the effect. And I'm specifically sayng "the plating process", not the plated metal, because the presence of a Fe layer per se is not sufficient to activate the effect. I verified this with the now "dead" LEC: it has a (slighty oxidized) Fe plating layer but it do not generate voltage and current anymore, even scratching some of the superficial oxide. BTW, the plating thickness is very small: approximately less than 10 um.

Alan Smith, I read the article you linked: it is interesting but it seems to describe a different (unrelated?) phenomenon. They obtained a charge accumulation, but not a current. In fact they used an electrometer to measure it. After reading the paper, I tryed to wet a little bit the WE of the "dead" LEC: still no voltage and no current. So the presence of the Fe layer (partly oxidized, but some in good condition) and humidity are not sufficient to trigger the effect. I'm now testing the corrotion potentials with the different metals. I will report the results later...

Well,

we are no longer going to talk about chemistry but about classical metallurgy.

From the data available on this experience, the deposit is indeed crucial.

Frank Gordon talked about vacancies.. this is a real subject !

There is in fact a fight induced at one side by the different expansion coefficients between Pd vs its substrate matter and the IRs which will tend to relax these constraints.

So, to find your effect, first of all, you have to remove some kind of cracks which stop vacancies movements because they are moving !

Cracks have to be understood by the "stacking fault energy", local and potential energy inducted by twinning or splitting of the lattice inducted by energy gap between different matters involved.

Why Biberian failed by using an alloy Pd/Ag ? Because generally alloys are giving more stiffness which induce this kind of defect.

The deposit advantage is that generation of pure palladium and therefore unalloyed, then the stabilization annealing you done will remove almost all residual defects. Removing these defects allows vacancies, which are missing atoms, to move well in the lattice. What is a vacancy really ? As an atom is missing in the metal lattice, another atom next to it can fill this hole creating another hole etc etc.

So virtually these void holes move by the movement of these metal atoms.

That means it exists a relative movement of Pd atoms that means protons Pd ! Inside the sea of electrons from the metal host. This kind of behavior is called an electric current ! Dont forget that protons H are drowned in the same bath..

It's already been 10 years since I spoke to Biberian ..

Some random thoughts on gas ionization sources.

What is required to ionize gas is a high enough electromagnetic field.

Even 1V can cause gas ionization if the distance between electrodes is small enough.

Spiky surface will help as well. High (local) concentration of charged particles therefore.

At first sight this is not the case in present LEC structures.

How to combine this with very thin co-deposited layers?

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

Some random thoughts on gas ionization sources.

What is required to ionize gas is a high enough electromagnetic field.

Even 1V can cause gas ionization if the distance between electrodes is small enough.

Spiky surface will help as well. High (local) concentration of charged particles therefore.

At first sight this is not the case in present LEC structures.

How to combine this with very thin co-deposited layers?

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Listen if you don't understand what i explained please stop to speculate more..

Basis of metallurgy:

here a good introduction

now from 6:47 to understand vacancy behavior

Here a good simulation from 3:47

From 3:42

i expect this kind of behavior highly increased about last Iwamura way.

Tests on corrosion potentials done. These are the results, by using a 3.5% NaCl solution with different metal paris (the sign between parentheses indicates the multimeter probe, + being the postitive one):

Fe (+) and Brass (-) => -188 mV

Fe (+) and Cu (-) => -240 mV

Fe (+) and Al (-) => +285 mV

Fe (+) and Graphite (-) => -160 mV

I also tested this combination, representative of the non plated WE (in the control device however, no voltage was measured):

Brass (+) and Cu (-) => 40 mV

Brass (+) and Al (-) => -440 mV

Brass (+) and Brass (-) => 0 mV

To avoid confusion: these tests were done with a beaker cointaining the solution, by using metal rods, no LEC involved at all ("no LEC were harmed in making these tests"... ).

These results are quite interesting, because the voltage levels are comparable to the ones obtained with the LEC, and there is the same polarity inversion observen when the aluminium electrode was used.

This may explain the origin of the voltage, but not the origin of the ionization.

I agree with Shane that this thread is very interesting and I think will be very productive.

Metallurgy is definitely involved. Here's another interesting article that models lattice vibrations including the impact of vacancies.

A Model and simulation of lattice vibrations in a superabundant vacancy phase of palladium-deuterium

https://iopscience.iop.org/art…1088/1361-651X/ab9994/pdf

So far, I'm not aware of any articles or models that describe what happens at the surface of a Pd-H or Pd-D lattice that include vacancies and I would appreciate knowing if those are available. Another consideration is the nonlinear wave-wave mixing which can produce localized areas of significantly higher energy. This may be more important in order to find enough energy for a nuclear reaction but it could also increase the localized amplitude to the point where the hydrogen atoms are ejected from the surface with enough energy to ionize the gas. Ultimately, we need to understand how the lattice dynamics lead to the production of ionizing radiation.

Everything is already known however, there is no LENR reaction in your system, your system is insufficient.

You have to follow first of all ,works from Hagelstein, Letts, Cravens for a beginning.

Now to make a link with former Fleischmann expectations about QED, you have to read Dubinko's paper about discrete breathers which are was you talked about as "localized areas of significantly higher energy".

Next you have to read my paper to reach KW..

Once again, everything is known, only we need of open minded and talented investors. Are you this very very very rare specie ?

PS: i forgot Josef Garai who worked in the same way as the paper you shared, good reading because there is a lot to understand normally it took years and years to well apprehend this.

Quote from Frank Gordon

I agree with Shane that this thread is very interesting and I think will be very productive.

Metallurgy is definitely involved. Here's another interesting article that models lattice vibrations including the impact of vacancies.

A Model and simulation of lattice vibrations in a superabundant vacancy phase of palladium-deuterium

https://iopscience.iop.org/art…1088/1361-651X/ab9994/pdf

So far, I'm not aware of any articles or models that describe what happens at the surface of a Pd-H or Pd-D lattice that include vacancies and I would appreciate knowing if those are available. Another consideration is the nonlinear wave-wave mixing which can produce localized areas of significantly higher energy. This may be more important in order to find enough energy for a nuclear reaction but it could also increase the localized amplitude to the point where the hydrogen atoms are ejected from the surface with enough energy to ionize the gas. Ultimately, we need to understand how the lattice dynamics lead to the production of ionizing radiation.

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Cydonia

You throw a lot on the table assuming we understand what you mean but it would help if you narrow your insights down to how this exactly is suppose to function in the presented LEC concept. Would it be possible for you to explain where and how this LEC concept might work, projecting it to the applied components, please?

Quote from Curbina

Rob Woudenberg , read the posts by Stevenson in this thread, he already did, and no voltage.

Your memory is better than mine Curbina. I found the post you were referring to. Thanks!

No tension only passion between good guys i took more time tomorrov PM for a deeper reply

You know i have spend so much time for nothing these last years around a pseudo Team France, around a pseudo Google project, HME project and other things that i became a little disappointed sorry to have been too rough with you.

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

Your memory is better than mine Curbina. I found the post you were referring to. Thanks!

Quote from Cydonia

Everything is already known however, there is no LENR reaction in your system, your system is insufficient.

You have to follow first of all ,works from Hagelstein, Letts, Cravens for a beginning.

Now to make a link with former Fleischmann expectations about QED, you have to read Dubinko's paper about discrete breathers which are was you talked about as "localized areas of significantly higher energy".

Next you have to read my paper to reach KW..

Once again, everything is known, only we need of open minded and talented investors. Are you this very very very rare specie ?

PS: i forgot Josef Garai who worked in the same way as the paper you shared, good reading because there is a lot to understand normally it took years and years to well apprehend this.

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You're correct that the LEC experimental results may not require a LENR reaction but we don't rule them out. However whatever is producing the experimental results is sufficient to produce those results. The open question is what/how is the radiation being produced.

Quote from Stevenson

Yes, I think this is the point.

Cydonia, please, read carefully what I wrote in the previous posts. You will find experiments and results, and you can draw your own conclusions. If some experiments are missing, no conclusion can be drawn, just hypothesis.

Yes, the mechanism that generate the voltage is really something similar in my opinion. The monumental difference is that air (and hydrogen) almost do not conduct electricity in normal conditions. If you go back to the previous posts, I measured just tens of pA currents on the control devices, versus more than 0.1 mA @ 10 V in the active device: the gas has become pretty conductive! In the active device it may act as an electrolyte, so allowing electrochemical reactions or wathever generate the voltage. But the main question is: what made the gas so conductive?!?

The point is not the excess power/energy: nobody is claiming it. The point is that the gas in the control device was not capable of conducting current (as expected by theory), while in the active the gas became conductive. Please, if you have any sound hypothesis on conventional phenomena allowing this, let us know. I'm ready to verify it experimentally.

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Yes, it is normal that a new phenomenon seems strange to us. We are on the front line, our subject of study is neglected by the mainstream, in a way, it is a chance for us: it is normal that we discover new things.

The opposite would be worrying.

The important thing is balance, as in all things: we must make new discoveries, we must not throw down the whole edifice of physics: what makes a master at chess, or an American football champion? Is someone changing the rules of the game?

No, it's someone who invents a new way of playing using the rules of the game.

Having made this chess and sporting analogy, one thing is certain: it is not ionizing radiation or new particles that cause ionization in our direct conversion devices.

I used to build ionization chambers. Even with intense sources (eg, americium deposit from fire detectors) an amplification circuit is required to be able to use an ion chamber conveniently.

Even in contact with an X-ray tube that I had made, without amplification electronics, you can't see anything.

You will tell me, yes, but the Curies did not use electronics, but ionization chambers made up of plane air capacitors and mechanical electroscopes. That is true. But the sources of radium they used were enormous!

For example, less than ten years ago, the furniture in Marie Curie's grandchildren's bedroom was moved because their family home was sold. We had to shred all the furniture (and the cupboard where they put their toys) and put everything in drums for the radioactive waste storage center in the Orient Forest… On returning from the laboratory, hands and clothes de Marie Curie were still charged with terrible radioactivity, but at that time, there was no Geiger counter, nor an ionization chamber with an electronic amplifier!

To give you another practical example, this afternoon I went for a walk with my children in the “Jardin des Plantes” in Paris. A few years ago there was a children's play area with swings and a slide. It was necessary to close it, and send the soil to the Soulaines radioactive waste collection center, near the beautiful Lac d'Orient, east of Paris, where the first white coats brothers took their first oath there nearly 9 centuries ago.

Why was this children's play area closed? Because Pierre and Marie Curie's laboratory was across the street. They threw their chemical residues in a courtyard behind the amphitheater of the Museum of Natural History. The amphitheater where Marie Curie taught still exists, but Paris-Sorbonne University had the beautiful brick facade painted a hideous white, with a red neon, it looks like a nightclub now! I fondly remember the lessons of my teacher Stavo Bratos, the French deuterium specialist. He did not hesitate to bring out the physics instruments that dated from Marie Curie out of the cupboards, and to have a good experiment in front of the "freshmen".

All this to tell you that the quantities of radioactivity used by the Curies were enormous.

So what is causing the electrical current of the Entenmann-Gordon effect is something else.

I think Hagelstein's Down-Conversion helps explain this phenomenon.

It is an extremely powerful concept. You know it, but many people have not realized its importance, so let me reiterate: at first, a nuclear reaction in condensed matter produces energy of several mega-electron volts. For example: D+D à⁴He + 24 MeV

Then this energy undergoes the Down-Conversion: it is dispersed in the condensed matter by processes which remain to be totally explained. This energy is now in the kilo-electron volts level and it can produce (with a very low probability) fast particles (eg ballistic deuterons. I had postulated this phenomenon a long time ago, and it has been confirmed by Charles Entenmann's team in Sarasota.) A 5keV deuteron can give back a fusion reaction and the cycle can start again. (picture 1)

With a higher probability, once the energy has dropped into the electron-volt range, an ionization reaction can occur on the surface of the alloy (here nanometric palladium) For example:

H₂ à H₂⁺ + e^-

The H₂⁺ ion diffuses through the gas up to the copper tube to neutralize itself, and the electrons pass through the electrical circuit. (picture 2)

It is a direct conversion of nuclear energy into electricity. This effect was discovered (and patented) by the team assembled by Charles Entenmann at his company BIOLIFE / BIOSEARCH in Sarasota (Kelly Keene and Rebecca Kitko).

And then the remaining energy will eventually thermalize itself, producing our famous "excess heat" and allowing tea to be brewed, which is an interesting industrial application, but not sufficient for our modern world.

Down-Conversion therefore makes it possible to explain AT THE SAME TIME the LENRs and their direct conversion.