Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

If plating is key to obtain electricity in this concept, I tend to think it also related to the ionization of at least part of the gas applied (air or hydrogen).

Open question: Is there a plating thickness range where electricity is generated? Outside that thickness range no electricity?

Another thought related to plating is that hydrogen is formed at the plated electrode (cathode) when electroplating is applied in a H₂O solution. This could cause hydrogen storage within the plated metal, which could be the fuel even if a LEC is filled with normal air. To confirm, a freshly plated WE should be degassed (e.g. by heating) before applying it within a LEC setup, to see whether electricity is still generated with a degassed WE or not.

Quote from Curbina

This is basically the “potato” or “lemon” battery, two metals on an aqueous solution

Corrosion reactions have slighty different mechanisms compared to normal batteries (that are based on standard redox electrode potentials), in fact voltages are usually lower.

Quote from fabrice DAVID

The important thing is balance, as in all things: we must make new discoveries, we must not throw down the whole edifice of physics:

I know. In fact I started by reading "Conduction of electricity through gases" by J.J Thomson. This book is really wonderful: it describes all the invonved phenomena and cases, with very clever experiments and methods. You will find in it concept and ideas that have became reality many years after its publication. Thomson measured the conductivity generated by heated metals, by flames, by photoelectricity, by radioactive material, and so on. It also gives many hints on how to investigate this phenomenon.

BTW, he measured ionization produces by hot metals with a simple quadrant electrometer: no need for amplification...

Quote from fabrice DAVID

The H2+ ion diffuses through the gas up to the copper tube to neutralize itself, and the electrons pass through the electrical circuit. (picture 2)

By reading Thomson, I know this cannot be the mechanisms at play on the LEC, because if you have just one polarity ions emitted by an electrode, your device would behave as a diode (the current would pass in just one direction). This is not the case: the current is quite simmetrical with equal saturation in both directions. This means that there is the same amount of positive and negative ions in the gas. Your hypothesis may be valid if the H2+ ions have sufficient energy to ionise the gas (so they are not the current carrier, but just the ionizing agent). This is also in good agreement with the down-convertion theory.

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

Open question: Is there a plating thickness range where electricity is generated? Outside that thickness range no electricity?

Sorry, no experimental data to answer your question.

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

Another thought related to plating is that hydrogen is formed at the plated electrode (cathode) when electroplating is applied in a H2O solution. This could cause hydrogen storage within the plated metal, which could be the fuel even if a LEC is filled with normal air. To confirm, a freshly plated WE should be degassed (e.g. by heating) before applying it within a LEC setup, to see whether electricity is still generated with a degassed WE or not.

Yes, Frank always talked about co-deposition, meaning that H is co-deposited with the metal. Probably if all hydrogen is desorbed there will be no activity. So probably it is the "fuel", but we still don't know what is the mechanism of action: it is just expelled with high energy ionizing the gas? Or it acts in some other way producting another kind of radiation? This latter hypothesis may seem a bit exotic, but there are many reference in the literature to these kind of phenomena (Rout-Srinivasan, Storms, etc.), that are clearly not related to the expulsion of adsorbed hydrogen.

Quote from Stevenson

Sorry, no experimental data to answer your question.

I understand, otherwise you would have mentioned it of course.

I was mentioning it as suggestion for possible interesting future research.

Regarding the hydrogen absorbed by the plated WE, I also had a recollection with Iwamura's work (Clean Planet, Japan), as Curbina mentioned earlier as well. Iwamua applies stacks of plated metals as a membrane to allow a flow of hydrogen (atoms) through such membrane, generating excess heat when his construction is heated to a few hundred ºC. I am not sure whether Iwamura ever measured excess electricity in his setup since the excess power in the form of heat is much higher as the power in the form of electricity of a LEC. I am not sure there is a relation therefore.

Quote from Stevenson

Probably if all hydrogen is desorbed there will be no activity.

This is why I suggested to degas the WE before testing to confirm whether hydrogen plays an essential role or not.

Focus should be to systematically analyze the role of plating in my view. By narrowing down essential plating parameters and their ranges it will be easier to find the cause of ionization.

Quote from Alan Smith

I could add the following rather wild proposal about a mechanism for spontaneous ionisation. The close association of hydrogen molecules with a metal surface could cause orbiting H- electrons to become detached from their protons and join in with de-localised valence electrons from the s and p orbitals of the interacting metal atoms.

Not so wild proposal Alan.

This is very similar to the proton membrane mechanism of platinum in PEM fuel cells, where platinum is the most efficient metal. Other metals like iron will likely have similar capabilities though with less efficiency. In the case of a LEC hydrogen is already stored in the plated layer as we concluded earlier. Since the absorption of hydrogen during plating is kind of a forced way, hydrogen might be slowly released, partly as H⁺ ions, under non-stress situation.

The only contradiction here is the voltage polarity switch in case aluminum is used for a CE. In that case the CE is releasing electrons instead of the WE. This would be possible if H^- ions are released by the WE.

To be back on this LEC business,

Frank Gordon

Metallurgy is definitely involved. Here's another interesting article that models lattice vibrations including the impact of vacancies.

A Model and simulation of lattice vibrations in a superabundant vacancy phase of palladium-deuterium

https://iopscience.iop.org/art…1088/1361-651X/ab9994/pdf

You have to know since 30 years now, this field has been requisitioned by physicists, chemists, electronics engineers it was not their fault because mainly due to the lack of other specialties such as metallurgy.

This is the main reason why so much "wrong things" were often mentioned on this topic during the time.

I'll stop you right now, Storms is not a metallurgist but a chemist, his NAE remains a very vague concept therefore insufficient.

About the above mention of superabundant vacancy, this of all, we have to know ,there is several ways to do Lenr, NiH, CuH, DD..etc etc..

All of these ways need often different settings, different ways to do the reaction.

Superabundant vacancy could be good but not full time for all combinations.

Generally it exists 2 kind of reactions, for example D+D are enough themselves to fuse by using a support for that, which is a vacancy inside palladium, iron etc..

The other type of reaction involving the "support" as reactant for example reactant Nickel which will fuse with an H alone.

This is the overview to well understand this.

Now back to electricity ,what is this basically ?

If you consider a duct a closed duct filled with...bananas..

Now, if you want to move this circuit,you have to move all bananas together.

As bad point, if this circuit is so big fromparis to NY for example,it will difficult to you to do that.

Now, if you remove few bananas ..

You will be able to move one by one each banana which induce a banana current !

This gap without banana is what we are talking as potential different quickly "Volt""

Now if you should have both bananas side by side as below, you will have 'Ampere".

Ampere a former french guy who never have been at university but probably liked bananas as me for sure..

Now about metal crack, why it exists ?

Because for metal manufacturing you need to the melting way to do part you want.

For example, it existing ways by which all atoms are heated all together ( induction process) .

Now for cooling nothing exists in this way, the heat will removed the part center to the surround layers, inducting crack Especailly if the part is big with a complex shape and if the metal is stiff as an steel strongly alloyed.

So it exists some technics to remove this cracks by heating once again the metal part really under the melting point then cooling the part very very very long time by maintaining a very few heating for example.

This is what done Frank Gordon about his layer deposited for example.

Now about metal voids:

Metal parts are elastic and plastic.. what is the difference ?

Elastic is the "spring" effect, if you stretch it, it will return to its initial position.

Now, it you strench the part too high he won't be able to go back to its initial position, this is plastic limit.....

Ok, now, what should be the question we have to ask ?

What happens inside the lattice in this case of plastic limit overcrossed ?

As the picture above you will create a lot of of this kind of voids.

A codeposition process appears really as a better way, compared to McKubre's one, too simple way to reach that.

When you fill a lattice with hydrogen you will have these kind of holes, also if you stretch the metal.

Why we need now to remove the biggest crack by an thermal annealing ? In order to easily generate these voids, in larger numbers avoiding interaction with the cracks.

Now, to be back to our banana's considerations:

The existence of the bananas current is quite relative because it depends on a fixed frame of reference which here is the duct.

So a current is always relative, bananas with respect to duct or protons with respect to electrons.

Most of the time only electrons are moving inside a proton lattice however it exists too the reverse a proton current ( even spin current but it's another topic)

Metal expansion considerations:

For example by sputtering deposit you can heat the substrat or not.

By playing with gap of metal expansion during the cooling after the psuttering process, the layer deposited could be stretched which induce dendrites for example.

This is an example how we can play with gap of metal expansion that means overcross the plastic limit of the matter then creating these kind of voids.

In the LEC case the metal expansion gap between Pd or Iron layer vs substrat tube, must be highly considered.

A global conclusion:

Don't forget that IRs tends to relaxe stresses dynamically as done the previous thermal annealing.

That induces Pd or Iron "protons" movement inside a relative static electron sea, that induces pico discharges inside an area, i call him back fully filled with hydrogen..

I hope I managed to be understandable by the majority.

Many speculate that potassium is essential for Lenr, there is so much of it in bananas in fact.

Quote from Stevenson

By reading Thomson, I know this cannot be the mechanisms at play on the LEC, because if you have just one polarity ions emitted by an electrode, your device would behave as a diode (the current would pass in just one direction). This is not the case: the current is quite simmetrical with equal saturation in both directions. This means that there is the same amount of positive and negative ions in the gas. Your hypothesis may be valid if the H2+ ions have sufficient energy to ionise the gas (so they are not the current carrier, but just the ionizing agent). This is also in good agreement with the down-convertion theory.

It is actually a diode.

Frank Gordon

A morning adding, as i said the metal plastic deformation area is the place by which you will do full voids.

This place is starting from the elastic deformation area and will finish to the sample breaking.

Don't forget that fractofusion well exists and generates neutrons !

Playing with the metal plastic area is as playing with a controled fractofusion in fact.

if you add a piezoactuator to your codeposition layer you should have "fun" i expect.

About your codeposition process you developed with your late friend, this is a real good way VS classic way of filling.

You have to know i have a friend who have had a giant event by this way.

He was in charge of thermionic emitter manufacturing.

The substrat was an hollow ZrO2 cylinder who he recovered by a first layer of nickel by sputtering process.

As important information he estimated that 10% of argon atoms were trapped both with nickel.

Next he added an other layer of nickel again by chemical way with an electrolyte able to give both hydrogen.

Once time , at the beginning of this second stage everything melted even ZrO2 !

David

Stevenson: Quote from fabrice DAVID (me)

The H2+ ion diffuses through the gas up to the copper tube to neutralize itself, and the electrons pass through the electrical circuit. (picture 2)

Stevenson wrote:

By reading Thomson, I know this cannot be the mechanisms at play on the LEC, because if you have just one polarity ions emitted by an electrode, your device would behave as a diode (the current would pass in just one direction). This is not the case: the current is quite simmetrical with equal saturation in both directions. This means that there is the same amount of positive and negative ions in the gas. Your hypothesis may be valid if the H2+ ions have sufficient energy to ionise the gas (so they are not the current carrier, but just the ionizing agent). This is also in good agreement with the down-convertion theory.

Can you quote the references of your assertion “This is not the case: the current is quite simmetrical with equal saturation in both directions.” ?

In the Entenmann patent, the hydrided electrode became the positive pole of the generator for months. In the LEC of Frank Gordon, I don’t know what is the stable behaviour of the device. Hydride codeposited electrode positive, or negative?

To be frank, my two LEC convertors are now dead, the first by hydrogen leak, the other by theby the spontaneous breaking of the very fragile palladium wire coated with nanocrystalline hydride palladium by codeposition.

Quote from fabrice DAVID

Can you quote the references of your assertion “This is not the case: the current is quite simmetrical with equal saturation in both directions.” ?

See post #193, the "current measurements" paragraph. In the same post you can also find the voltage measurements (showing polarity). You can notice that by changing the counter electrode metal also the polarity changes (this was observed with aluminium). This, in my opinion, is a good indication that the voltage generation is a second order effect, due to the fact that the gas is actually ionized (both charges present in equal amount) and behaves quite like an electrolyte.

Quote from fabrice DAVID

In the Entenmann patent, the hydrided electrode became the positive pole of the generator for months.

I have to read the Entenmann patent, I don't know if the involved phenomena are the same.

Stevenson

Concerning the ionization

It is assumed that the gas in the LEC is ionized.

If it is fully ionized then I would expect also a current between the copper wire entering the LEC at the righthandside and the outher tube.

This current path will be parallel to the current between inner and iuther tube and thus partly short out the voltage depending how low ohmic this path is.

I have currently not the idea that there is such an effect.

If such a parallel conductive path is not present then an other explanation is that the ionization is more local between the inner and outher tube.

The question is then, is that ionization really present ?

To verify you could dril a small hole in the outher tube and put a wire in it, isolating it by epoxy, the wire protuding a little bit in the area between inner and outher tube.

If there is indeed ionization then you should be able to measure a resistance between the protuded wire and the outher tube.

Disclaimer : I did only visit this thread a few times. so it could be that some of these issues have already been covered.

A simple but seeming absurd explanation of LEC is salty gas. That is the gas phase contains a small amount of electrolyte. Then, to made a electric cell one could use redox potential as suggested by Alan. Stevenson's observed polarity reversal with Aluminum as an electrode and magnitude of voltage and polarity results when salt solution replaces the gas between electrodes supports salty gas suggestion.

So maybe Cydonia could suggest how LENR creates semi-stable monoatomic atoms which can catalyst the ionization of the gas phase in their immediate vicinity. Likely, the monoatomic catalyst absorbs IR radiation to pass ionization to the gas. The gas then would pass cations and anions as suggested by Gordon.

I would be interested in the material specifications of the 0-rings and the epoxy.

Also, in the presentation of Gordon I see that some (red) sealing is applied to close off the outer tube. What type of sealing is that ? Loctite? It is important to know whether there could be an influence on these insulating materials when hydrogen is present. Worse case, isolation characteristics are influenced.

This may be difficult to determine. A way to exclude current creping via assumed infinite isolation is to measure resistance between CE and WE with two similar metals of which at least one is plated, preferably iron plated WE and an iron CE. This should not give any voltage/current generation between CE and WE, so resistance can be measured between WE and CE with the presence of hydrogen due to the iron plated WE.

Quote from Stevenson

I have to read the Entenmann patent, I don't know if the involved phenomena are the same.

https://patentscope.wipo.int/s…il.jsf?docId=WO2016178723

The non-final rejection letter to the above is quite interesting. Seems that there are several more similar designs in prior art.
.

Non final rejection pdf

Quote from Alan Smith

Looking at redox potentials shows Al as electronegative and Cu as positive. This may suggest other metal pairs?

I had some difficulty in figuring out how these potentials would be applied in the case of LEC, since they imply that the metals are dissolved in the acqueous solution as ions (and viceversa).

Mg and Ag may be other two interesting candidates, but this may require to change the geometry, since it may be difficult to find these metals the right form factor (6 mm OD tubes, 5 mm ID).

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

I would be interested in the material specifications of the 0-rings and the epoxy.

In my device I made the spacers with rubber. The end seal (the "non permanent" one) is made of the same rubber covered with PTFE. The permanent end seal is made of the same metal of the CE, just sealed with epoxy (it is quite distant from the WE in any case). Of course I verified the conductivity of the rubber before using it.

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

A way to exclude current creping via assumed infinite isolation is to measure resistance between CE and WE

I never assumed anything, I measured it! The measurements I made on the control devices were aimed at verifying things like these. As you can read in the spefic post, I tested the conductivity on non-plated devices with same and different metals for CE and WE, with air and hydrogen and different pressures, and I also re-tested the plated LEC after it "died". Almost zero conductivity in all the cases, even with 60V applied. For this reason I was really striked when I saw more than 0.1 mA passing through the active LEC with only 10V applied! This current decreased the day after, as the voltage did, so there is a correlation with the degree of activity of the device (whatever it is).

Well Drgenek

i proposed a metallurgical way for the LEC explanation because noted interesting things about its treatment needed to reach the result expected ( annealing..)

Now all the chemical hypothesis here are very relevant in the same time.

However i consider these 2 ways not enough satisfying to Frank Gordon because he disappeared.

Probably he took refuge in his lab to look for a third way

Quote from Drgenek

A simple but seeming absurd explanation of LEC is salty gas. That is the gas phase contains a small amount of electrolyte. Then, to made a electric cell one could use redox potential as suggested by Alan. Stevenson's observed polarity reversal with Aluminum as an electrode and magnitude of voltage and polarity results when salt solution replaces the gas between electrodes supports salty gas suggestion.

So maybe Cydonia could suggest how LENR creates semi-stable monoatomic atoms which can catalyst the ionization of the gas phase in their immediate vicinity. Likely, the monoatomic catalyst absorbs IR radiation to pass ionization to the gas. The gas then would pass cations and anions as suggested by Gordon.

Quote from Drgenek

A simple but seeming absurd explanation of LEC is salty gas. That is the gas phase contains a small amount of electrolyte. Then, to made a electric cell one could use redox potential as suggested by Alan.

I made a brief test on this (it actually was for testing effect of high humidity): I wetted a bit the WE with water first, and then with diluted HCl. Result: no effect on the "dead" LEC, it didn't resurrected (no voltage, no current). Apart from this, Frank also made some test at -55°C, to exclude the effect of humidity.