Lowering the pressure instead seems to reduce the effect, so vacuum may not be the best choice (even if it may highlight some key feature).
To be honest, I was thinking more about controlling the atmosphere than running under vaccuum. I have H2, D2, Ar, Ne, C02 available.
To be honest, I was thinking more about controlling the atmosphere than running under vaccuum. I have H2, D2, Ar, Ne, C02 available.
I understood that to be the case Alan Smith, That you are suggesting the use of the vacuum chamber as a big LEC with metal plates in order to have the required space to put probes and measure things around the plates.
Yes, i talked about Far infrared from ambiant temperature by which LEC was tested up to more lower temperature.
According to some papers even under zero °C it could run..
Now, take care, from one side you will have the photon intensity in wavelength and at another side you will have the photon strength. If your external tube is heated at ambiant temperature it will irradiate the same wavelength if it does 1cm or 5 cm as diameter up to the Pd layer. Now, the 5cm tube in its case will irradiate 5X more photons vs the 1cm.. Analogy is volt about wavelength and ampere about the surface focused.. to be more understandable. In LEC case the important is increasing the surface rather than heating the external tube and moving the IR spectrum.
Thank you! I appreciate it.
When you talk about IRs, which region are you referring to? Near visible? Near IR? Far IR? And how far?
I plan to also use silicon PIN photodiodes to try to detect the radiation. These diodes have a very good sensitivity in the near IRs region. Far IR requires other kind of detectors (e.g. bolometric sensors).
@ Curbina wrote: I understood that to be the case Alan Smith, That you are suggesting the use of the vacuum chamber as a big LEC with metal plates in order to have the required space to put probes and measure things around the plates.
I've been preparing to do similar testing, initially using a spare Mizuno reactor fitted with one plastic conflat end to support the plated inner tube. That would give about 150 cm2 of surface area. The ID of the reactor is 1.370, and using available 1.250" OD copper tubing would give a gap of 1.5 mm. That's more than in Stevenson's experiments but may still work. One way to find out....
The vacuum/gas plumbing and external heater are already in place, and all that needs figuring is a gas-tight pass through for the cathode connection.
Another idea that seems possible is to connect 5-10 smaller cells in series to light a low-power led. With only ten microamps it might not be bright enough to see, even in a dark room.
To be honest, I was thinking more about controlling the atmosphere than running under vaccuum. I have H2, D2, Ar, Ne, C02 available.
It is a very good idea. The voltage and current obtained with different gases may reveal something on the nature and properties of "radiation".
In LEC case the important is increasing the surface rather than heating the external tube and moving the IR spectrum.
By increasing the outer tube may things will change, such as the gas volume and the distance between electrodes. Both this things will have noticeable effects, even without taking into account a potential IR contribution. Increasing the gas volume will probably increase the number of charges available, but the increased distance will add "resistance" to the device, since the charges will recombine more easily. I expect that the open circuit voltage will be the same and the current will be also the same or lower.
I understand that your prediction imply that either the voltage and the current will be higer. Am I right?
I've been preparing to do similar testing, initially using a spare Mizuno reactor fitted with one plastic conflat end to support the plated inner tube.
Great news! With that dimensions you will probably get a much bigger current.
Another idea that seems possible is to connect 5-10 smaller cells in series to light a low-power led. With only ten microamps it might not be bright enough to see, even in a dark room.
Probably it is not needed to use more cells: just one WE can be used to "ionize" the gas and then a number of couples of different metal electrodes can be placed in series. High efficiency red LEDs light up with very low voltages and currents, so I think it will be no difficult even with just one LEC (I will report some data on this).
i propose here a more understandable sectional view, as you will see anode/cathode distance won't change, only IRs flux will be increased. To carry the current "active" earlier external tube became 3 or 4 rods.
Now, you can reuse the internal tube rather than adding rods then only cut some notches as you can see.
I've been preparing to do similar testing
Can we take this to mean MFMP has started their own LEC replication/research?
Can we take this to mean MFMP has started their own LEC replication/research?
It will be a Magicsound Lab project, as a member of the MFMP collective. Bob Greenyer will not be here though his support and advice are always welcome. I'm still in the early stages, designing an experimental program and collecting materials, but no time frame or firm plans have been established yet.
There are several technical questions that would benefit from input here. For example, the use of stainless steel for the outer cylinder may not work because the electrode potential will be very close to that of the deposited Fe on the inner tube. For that reason, it may be helpful to insert a copper liner in the Mizuno cell and I have ordered a piece of thin wall tubing for that purpose. That will also reduce the electrode spacing to ~0.5 mm.
Other issues will be offered here for discussion as they arise.
For example, the use of stainless steel for the outer cylinder may not work because the electrode potential will be very close to that of the deposited Fe on the inner tube. For that reason, it may be helpful to insert a copper liner in the Mizuno cell and I have ordered a piece of thin wall tubing for that purpose. That will also reduce the electrode spacing to ~0.5 mm.
This is probably correct, and Cu will give you a good voltage level (in the range 200 to 300 mV according to my experiments). But a quick test without the copper liner would be interesting to cross check the electrode potential theory.
Other issues will be offered here for discussion as they arise.
Fell free to ask for any clarification or doubt. Your cell structure will allow to make interesting experiments, so it it will be for sure a valuable contribution.
As for high efficiency LEDs: I verified that if the voltage is greater than the diode forward voltage (about 1.5V for red LEDs), they will glow with a faint light even with few uA of current.
Hello Frank Gordon . I'm just getting up to speed with your work and catching up with all the conversation here. It's all very interesting stuff, thanks for sharing.
If I understand correctly, then the surprising thing about your experiments is not that there is voltage, but that the gas is being ionised. The hypothesis that I see being discussed here to explain that ionisation is that there is some unexpected radiation coming off the "working" electrode and that this radiation is ionising the gas.
My immediate thought is - has any attempt been made to study the radiation coming off the co-deposited "working" electrode more directly? I saw a similar question earlier in the thread but couldn't see any reply to it (sorry if I missed that). For example, presumably we could just take flat sheet of material, do the co-deposition as you described earlier and then put the co-deposited material in vacuum with a geiger counter (or another well understood radiation detector, or some radiographic film) in front of it and see that we find. Perhaps this is naive but it seems like a simpler set-up that might help us get some more direct measurements of any radiation.
What do you think?
For example, presumably we could just take flat sheet of material, do the co-deposition as you described earlier and then put the co-deposited material in vacuum with a geiger counter (or another well understood radiation detector, or some radiographic film) in front of it and see that what you find.
I tryed to measure the radiation with a Geiger counter, but I didn't detect anything (I got about same counts as background over 5 mins). I used an alpha sensitive Geiger tube (mica window), but its minimum detectable energy is in the range of 100s keV. Probably the emitted radiation has a lower energy (even < 1 keV?). Rout and Srinivasan made extensive experiments on this radiation, but they were unable to idetify its nature or to find suitable detectors apart from photographic emulsions and termoluminescent detectors.
When I will have the chance of repeating the experiment, I will try to use a number of different sensors: photoresistors, silicon PIN photodiodes, plastic scintillators, a small ionization chamber and so on. Also experimenti with vacuum or various gases may provide some clues.
Thanks for clarifying Stevenson . I appreciate you taking the time. Might I also ask, is your documentation of your replication available as a PDF or other doc? I saw a few posts in this thread but would be great to have access to it offline so I can make sure I'm fully up to speed with your work (thanks for taking the time to replicate btw)
Might I also ask, is your documentation of your replication available as a PDF or other doc?
This is a good idea! I will produce a document putting together the information I posted and some background considerations, and I will share it here. Just give me a couple of days. 
Here it is the document! Hope it will be useful.
CHIMIE PHYSIQUE - Piles à hydrogène empruntant leur ènergie au milieu ambiant [hydrogen cells borrowing their energy from the surrounding environment].
Note de M. VASILESCO KARPEN, présentée par M. Aimé Cotton.
[1922, 1944, 1948]
Karpen is interesting but may be not relevant
Huizenga is interesting but may be not relevant
Thank you Stevenson - very nice work indeed. And useful.
Yes Stevenson you are one of the
Bright Spots on L.F.
BTW moderators my React with thanks etc is not working.
Anyone else having this problem?
