Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

  • Ah well, shame. Perhaps Cydonia could try? Brass or copper, nylon mesh or thin open-weave tissue (single layer), aluminium and a multimeter. All clean, all dry.


    It didn't have to be flat. I could get a copper tube and aluminium sheet to work. If I wrap more tightly the Al sheet around the piece of tissue I get a higher voltage than displayed here.



    However, I initially briefly electrolyzed one end of the copper tube in very diluted KOH to clean it up (I forgot I didn't have to; the shiny surface is partially visible). In the beginning voltage was in the order -500 mV (under a tighter wrap), then slowly started decreasing and is currently -8.7 mV.


    The outer surface of the tube is definitely dry. I cleaned it with alcohol too, although I cannot rule out that conductive residues still remain and have an effect through the thin porous piece of tissue.


    EDIT: if I manually hold the piece of aluminium with great pressure onto the Cu tube, voltage gets to 250–300 mV or so.


    EDIT: holding the Cu tube with the other hand (with a nitrile glove) causes voltage to get more negative, so this could be also a matter of grounding and so on.

  • Not quite- the electrode is the source, the earth is a sink There is no circuit involved. Yet connect a multimeter between a positive battery terminal and earth and you will see a voltage - that's how earth-leak detectors work.

    Can you also measure the voltage between the not earthed electrode and 'earth' when the other is connected to earth?

    This should give you the 'disappeared' voltage.

  • Can you also measure the voltage between the not earthed electrode and 'earth' when the other is connected to earth?

    This should give you the 'disappeared' voltage

    No- effectively that is a short circuit. But I can tell you that earthing either of a stacked pair of electrodes producing (say) 250mV only lowers the voltage produced by about 20mV - this led us to check the earth was good- which it was.

  • Before conducting voltage measurement forming hydrogen at the copper surface or not?

    Yes, before the measurements. I used 31V at about 1A and lots of gas was evolved at the Cu tube. This cleaned the surface nicely.



    However, I think the results I am observing mainly depend on grounding (EDIT: maybe not). If I touch the tube with both bare hands (one on the Al foil, another on the other end of the tube), voltage immediately increases to a few hundreds negative mV.

  • I used 31V at about 1A and lots of gas was evolved at the Cu tube.

    That means that some degree of hydrogen would be absorbed and released later onwards.

    Copper is probably better able to absorb hydrogen than iron.


    This grounding issue is something we need to analyze further. This is very puzzling at this stage.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    Probably hydrogen is not that much related, and grounding was only a secondary issue. After touching the Cu tube and the Al sheet extensively I found that making a circuit between the partially insulated Al foil and the Cu tube with my hands appears to be enough.


    It can be done with one hand by touching both the Al foil and the open Cu surface close to it, or with two hands by pinching the foil with the left hand and pinching the Cu tube with the right hand.


    I'm not sure if this is exactly what Alan Smith asked, though.

  • The foil does not even have to be on the tube; a high impedance conduction path to the tube seems sufficient.


    EDIT: it looks like trying to measure a voltage across one hands as I did here through the tube (photos removed) may indeed produce positive results and should be expected. In any case, I still got a few mV as shown earlier on without touching the tube with my hands and with a thin separator to the Al foil. That should be more similar to what Alan Smith reported doing, albeit to a lower extent.

  • Only a quick thought according to what explained Alan Smith .


    Now, if you want more infos about the vaccum energy you have to know it's a real business !


    Simply you have to know that matter with which you can interact possesses the same number of dimensions as you so 3.

    For example it exists a trouble to well define an electron , is it a particle or is it a wave ?

    In fact inside an atom it's a wave let's consider in 2D , then when it will leave the atom it will become a particle by adding one more dimension.

    About vaccum energy consider that vaccum 2D waves when interact with a 3D matter composing an object which is in 2D, a plate here , will become a speudo particle in 3D with a kinetic energy ( potential).

    To summarise consider that our world is a big origami, the best analogy.


    Aahahahaa i lost Holmlid ... 8o

    Casimir effect relates to physical forces when distances are in the neighbourhood of nanometers.

    Can you explain how you think that would relate to the LEC voltage effect?

  • Ah well, shame. Perhaps Cydonia could try? Brass or copper, nylon mesh or thin open-weave tissue (single layer), aluminium and a multimeter. All clean, all dry.

    Alan Smith, I made a number of similar tests well befare starting with my replication (so I know the result :)). However I repeated it now, just as you described it: copper foil (few cm^2) over very thin nylon mesh, over aluminium foil (pressed with a plastic weight). The result was almost 0 mV, as I expected. However I noticed an interesting effect (that is probably electrostatic in nature): by varying the pressure unpon the stack, few mV briefly appear (returning to zero rapidly).

  • copper foil (few cm^2) over very thin nylon mesh, over aluminium foil (pressed with a plastic weight). The result was almost 0 mV, as I expected. However I noticed an interesting effect (that is probably electrostatic in nature): by varying the pressure unpon the stack, few mV briefly appear (returning to zero rapidly).

    Thank you. Absolutely what I wanted. I am plagued by an odd phenomenon. I have a piece of aluminium about the size and thickness of a paperback book. If I do the nylon mesh and brass plate (about the size and thickness of a playing card) thing it gives me a persistent 200mV or so every time. Short them ut and it bounces back instantly. Must be an artifact, but none of my or Matt's usual tricks seemed to make it go away or explain it. But I will.

  • The foil does not even have to be on the tube; a high impedance conduction path to the tube seems sufficient. The voltage measured varies depending on the materials. Of course in these crude tests there will be large variations but overall this is what I saw. Putting the photos in the spoiler tag.

    All this leads to the desire of defining how a LEC should be measured.

    Some proposed options:






    V1-V3 being high impedance multi/volt meters.

    WE = Working Electrode

    CE = Counter Electrode


    When I understood Alan Smith correctly he measures different values of V1 in different options given above.

    Leaving out V2 and/or V3 by measuring these positions with V1 in a consecutive manner is not the same as depicted in options 1 - 3. In case of only 1 multimeter available V2 and/or V3 should then preferably be replaced by a 10 M ohm resistor.

  • If I do the nylon mesh and brass plate (about the size and thickness of a playing card) thing it gives me a persistent 200mV or so every time.

    Try to measure the current. Put the meter in current mode, with a full scale of some mA, and see if a current flows. if you get something close to 0, it is an artifact (probably due to electromagnetic or electrostatic interferences). If you get current greater than some uA, you may have something really special at hand... :)
    Consider that if your meter is a true RMS one, it may show the amplitude of electromagnetic noise picked up by the metal pieces. Since they are relatively large, they are probably capacitively coupled with your mains (also try to measure the frequency of the signal, you should get 50 Hz).

    Probably if you connect one of the plate to earth, the signal will diasppear (or largely decrease).

  • Consider that if your meter is a true RMS one, it may show the amplitude of electromagnetic noise picked up by the metal pieces. Since they are relatively large, they are probably capacitively coupled with your mains (also try to measure the frequency of the signal, you should get 50 Hz).

    Probably if you connect one of the plate to earth, the signal will diasppear (or largely decrease).

    I think there are two simple things to do. One is to switch off the electricity supply into the building and use a battery meter to check the stack voltage, the other is to put a scope on it. I know we have a 14Hz transient on the mains (or in the air or both) which comes from the ground radar at a nearby airfield, but I don't think it's that. Thank you for your input on this- it's a puzzle. I think it's going to be Thursday before I get a chance to check these thoings.

  • Regarding the reports of a small voltage detected when two plates that have been close together are separated, we have also observed this phenomena. For lack of a better explanation, we assumed that it was related to the triboelectric effect which will not support a DC current. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect There may be other explanations.


    Another thing that we have observed is small fluctuations in the voltage when we move our hand near the meter when the cell is instrumented at high impedance. We believe is due to a change in the electric field in the surrounding environment. Both of these effects can be mitigated is by operating the cell at 1 M Ω or lower. Ultimately, measuring the voltage at various loads down to a few Ohms is important to characterize the LEC.