Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

The foil does not even have to be on the tube; a high impedance conduction path to the tube seems sufficient.

EDIT: it looks like trying to measure a voltage across one hands as I did here through the tube (photos removed) may indeed produce positive results and should be expected. In any case, I still got a few mV as shown earlier on without touching the tube with my hands and with a thin separator to the Al foil. That should be more similar to what Alan Smith reported doing, albeit to a lower extent.

Only a quick thought according to what explained Alan Smith .

Now, if you want more infos about the vaccum energy you have to know it's a real business !

Simply you have to know that matter with which you can interact possesses the same number of dimensions as you so 3.

For example it exists a trouble to well define an electron , is it a particle or is it a wave ?

In fact inside an atom it's a wave let's consider in 2D , then when it will leave the atom it will become a particle by adding one more dimension.

About vaccum energy consider that vaccum 2D waves when interact with a 3D matter composing an object which is in 2D, a plate here , will become a speudo particle in 3D with a kinetic energy ( potential).

To summarise consider that our world is a big origami, the best analogy.

Aahahahaa i lost Holmlid ...

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

Casimir effect relates to physical forces when distances are in the neighbourhood of nanometers.

Can you explain how you think that would relate to the LEC voltage effect?

Quote from Alan Smith

Ah well, shame. Perhaps Cydonia could try? Brass or copper, nylon mesh or thin open-weave tissue (single layer), aluminium and a multimeter. All clean, all dry.

Alan Smith, I made a number of similar tests well befare starting with my replication (so I know the result ). However I repeated it now, just as you described it: copper foil (few cm^2) over very thin nylon mesh, over aluminium foil (pressed with a plastic weight). The result was almost 0 mV, as I expected. However I noticed an interesting effect (that is probably electrostatic in nature): by varying the pressure unpon the stack, few mV briefly appear (returning to zero rapidly).

Quote from Stevenson

copper foil (few cm^2) over very thin nylon mesh, over aluminium foil (pressed with a plastic weight). The result was almost 0 mV, as I expected. However I noticed an interesting effect (that is probably electrostatic in nature): by varying the pressure unpon the stack, few mV briefly appear (returning to zero rapidly).

Thank you. Absolutely what I wanted. I am plagued by an odd phenomenon. I have a piece of aluminium about the size and thickness of a paperback book. If I do the nylon mesh and brass plate (about the size and thickness of a playing card) thing it gives me a persistent 200mV or so every time. Short them ut and it bounces back instantly. Must be an artifact, but none of my or Matt's usual tricks seemed to make it go away or explain it. But I will.

Quote from can

The foil does not even have to be on the tube; a high impedance conduction path to the tube seems sufficient. The voltage measured varies depending on the materials. Of course in these crude tests there will be large variations but overall this is what I saw. Putting the photos in the spoiler tag.

All this leads to the desire of defining how a LEC should be measured.

Some proposed options:

V1-V3 being high impedance multi/volt meters.

WE = Working Electrode

CE = Counter Electrode

When I understood Alan Smith correctly he measures different values of V1 in different options given above.

Leaving out V2 and/or V3 by measuring these positions with V1 in a consecutive manner is not the same as depicted in options 1 - 3. In case of only 1 multimeter available V2 and/or V3 should then preferably be replaced by a 10 M ohm resistor.

Quote from Alan Smith

If I do the nylon mesh and brass plate (about the size and thickness of a playing card) thing it gives me a persistent 200mV or so every time.

Try to measure the current. Put the meter in current mode, with a full scale of some mA, and see if a current flows. if you get something close to 0, it is an artifact (probably due to electromagnetic or electrostatic interferences). If you get current greater than some uA, you may have something really special at hand...
Consider that if your meter is a true RMS one, it may show the amplitude of electromagnetic noise picked up by the metal pieces. Since they are relatively large, they are probably capacitively coupled with your mains (also try to measure the frequency of the signal, you should get 50 Hz).

Probably if you connect one of the plate to earth, the signal will diasppear (or largely decrease).

Interesting to see such commitment and cooperation among members.

It's so amazing, exactly this dynamic i dreamed of in 2011 when we started lenr forum

Happy LF birthday David 10 years

Now, to extend your words: cleaning means running

Quote from Stevenson

Consider that if your meter is a true RMS one, it may show the amplitude of electromagnetic noise picked up by the metal pieces. Since they are relatively large, they are probably capacitively coupled with your mains (also try to measure the frequency of the signal, you should get 50 Hz).

Probably if you connect one of the plate to earth, the signal will diasppear (or largely decrease).

I think there are two simple things to do. One is to switch off the electricity supply into the building and use a battery meter to check the stack voltage, the other is to put a scope on it. I know we have a 14Hz transient on the mains (or in the air or both) which comes from the ground radar at a nearby airfield, but I don't think it's that. Thank you for your input on this- it's a puzzle. I think it's going to be Thursday before I get a chance to check these thoings.

Regarding the reports of a small voltage detected when two plates that have been close together are separated, we have also observed this phenomena. For lack of a better explanation, we assumed that it was related to the triboelectric effect which will not support a DC current. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect There may be other explanations.

Another thing that we have observed is small fluctuations in the voltage when we move our hand near the meter when the cell is instrumented at high impedance. We believe is due to a change in the electric field in the surrounding environment. Both of these effects can be mitigated is by operating the cell at 1 M Ω or lower. Ultimately, measuring the voltage at various loads down to a few Ohms is important to characterize the LEC.

BTW- Matt just send me the notes he made for the clean and dry unplated brass/aluminium test. They present even more of a puzzle.

With a nylon mesh spacer 348mV, very little drop in voltage if either plate was earthed, but the voltage vanished if they were separated widely, shorted out, or allowed to touch, but recovered immediately after a short circuit was removed.

.

With 0.1mm glass microscope cover slips as separators, covering about 1/3 of the contact area 278mV , with the system behaving as above, and with a thin and non-porous polythene sheet 0 mV in all cases.

The picture Matt took shows the aluminium slab- the things on top of the stack are lead weights - they help keep everything flat and close together. Here you see the plastic film in place, and 0V on the meter.

Alan Smith

Is voltage polarity (when a voltage appears) consistent with the expected galvanic voltage for brass–aluminium?

Quote from Alan Smith

zeolites are used fr gas drying (including H2) in many commercial systems. I use a drying tower with seceral kilos in -

Thanks

I was wondering if any would get into the electrolyte and what might happen if it did. Does yours have a palladium atom in it's structure?

Out of left field as usual. Perhaps not relevant for this series of experiments.

Add a dash of zeolites to the mix.

Consider

If a zeolite absorbed a metal would it carry it into an electroplated layer...

The triboelectric effect was my explanation about the Thermacore cold case.

For youngers, it was a relevant experiment in which a metallic vessel was filled by 1 kg nickel powder next in a second stage by hydrogen. After this loading the vessel became red hot.

I explained this behavior by electron transfer during the powder filling by friction generating electrons clusters.

Then these clusters tending to be rebalanced during hydrogen loading.

Probably JedRothwell could tell more..

Quote from Frank Gordon

Regarding the reports of a small voltage detected when two plates that have been close together are separated, we have also observed this phenomena. For lack of a better explanation, we assumed that it was related to the triboelectric effect which will not support a DC current. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triboelectric_effect There may be other explanations.

Another thing that we have observed is small fluctuations in the voltage when we move our hand near the meter when the cell is instrumented at high impedance. We believe is due to a change in the electric field in the surrounding environment. Both of these effects can be mitigated is by operating the cell at 1 M Ω or lower. Ultimately, measuring the voltage at various loads down to a few Ohms is important to characterize the LEC.

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

Given the data provided so far from reported experiments I would think more and more in following direction:

A classic example of redox reactions between different metals is a galvanic cell as depicted below:

Source: Wikipedia

In the situation of a LEC the 'porous disc' and electrolyte seems to be replaced by a ionic hydrogen layer consisting of at least H⁺ and H^- ions produced by the release of hydrogen from a metal lattice. Normally such ionic hydrogen layer would rapidly recombine to H₂ but the galvanic potential in this case may be prevailing charge transport before recombination.

This might explain why the mechanism works with both voltage polarities.

This seems contradicting the experiments of can where a full surface mica layer has been applied. However we don't know how easy hydrogen ions might pass mica.

I think it would be useful to further look for confirmations that H⁺ and H^- can be easily formed by release of hydrogen from a metal lattice under a (relative low) voltage potential present.

EDIT:

It is likely that a critical distance between electrodes is valid. This could be due to a critical electrostatic field strength limit where recombination of hydrogen ions prevail ionic transport and vice versa. In any case recombination occurs, but in the case recombination occurs before ions reach the counter electrode, no current will be measured (distance between electrode too large). The critical distance will be different for each type of metal combination due to the difference in galvani potentials. There will be other factors that determine this critical distance such as local humidity and composition of the gas between the electrodes.

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This is the famous Daniell Pile. I am working on this somewhat old fashioned model with the goal of obtaining batteries that can output at least one megawatt. (To power turbopumps) The lithium batteries of the Electron Labs Rutherford engines are way too heavy. We can do a lot better. I got a little interested in the process of generating electricity from batteries, as well as electroplating.

The "porous disk" of a two-liquid battery can effectively be replaced. I was interested in how the ancient Egyptians covered their wooden statues by electroplating. (In the Cairo museum, we see hollow statues of King Pepi which are obviously produced by electroplating.)

(They probably destroyed the wood inside with the help of termites)

Batteries are not found in Egyptian archaeological sites, like in Baghdad (You know, the famous battery that disappeared during the desert storm) So the Egyptians used everyday kitchen containers.

Here is my explanation, which I called "Gravity Pile": They used the force of gravity to separate the two liquids (Natural Copper Sulfate and Iron Sulfate). I made the attached drawing for a lecture by my friend Antoine Gigal, an independent archaeologist.

Quote from Alan Smith

BTW- Matt just send me the notes he made for the clean and dry unplated brass/aluminium test. They present even more of a puzzle.

Alan Smith, the voltage alone does not provide sufficient information to solve the puzzle. Try to measure other things: resistance, frequency, AC voltage, and mainly the DC current: if it is > some uA it is a real LEC-like effect. Also, as Frank suggested, try to lower the impedance, connecting in parallel a 1 MOhm or 100 kOhm resistor.

If a real LEC-like effect is present, it may be due to... radioativity!

Another non-LEC observation from a quick test: the voltage between the black FeO/Fe3O4-covered cathode and a clean steel counter-electrode is positive, but after the cathode turns brown-red/rusty (likely from many different forms of FeOOH), the voltage turns negative. Of course, this is with the addition of an electrolyte, so in this case this is a galvanic/battery effect.

EDIT: I'm mentioning this also because in the previously posted report from Frank Gordon there was a voltage reversal upon heating the device, and on final inspection, the black iron pipe developed red-colored features on its surface, as seen in the photos there.

Quote from can

EDIT: I'm mentioning this also because in the previously posted report from Frank Gordon there was a voltage reversal upon heating the device, and on final inspection, the black iron pipe developed red-colored features on its surface, as seen in the photos there.

That's the further oxidation of Fe3O4 to Fe2O3. Happens every time there's som humidity.

Alan Smith

The possible presence of water was indeed suggested.

From Microsoft Word - Preliminary test report Iron WE in Gal CE.docx (lenr-forum.com) :

Quote

[...] Note that the voltage started to decline at about 100 C. We have observed changes in previous tests that occurred at about that temperature, but we don’t have enough data to draw any conclusions. There are several possibilities including the temperature that any water vapor in the gas would be converted to steam and/or the changes in the mobility of the ions in the gas which is consistent with the hypothesis that the diffusion term in the conduction equation depends on the difference in the mobilities of the positive and negative ions as pointed out by Darrow. [...]