The decline mentioned in the above quote from the report is for voltage to begin its journey to negative values. The actual voltage effect apparently started going to 0 mV from about 200 °C. I aligned both T and voltage vs time graphs below:
Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop
-
-
Regarding
The actual voltage effect apparently started going to 0 mV from about 200 °C
I have plotted both the temperature in C and the voltage on the same plot for your convenience. As shown, the voltage started to decay about the time that the temperature as recorded by a thermocouple in the kiln was approximately 100 C. Based on earlier experiments, we estimate that there is a 10-15 degree C lag in the temperature inside the LEC. Note that we also changed the load resistance which caused some of the abrupt changes. As previously reported in post #543, our current working hypothesis is that this voltage change is due to increased water vapor attaching to the ions in the gas
-
Isn't there a risk in a closed cell with concentric construction that water (either adsorbed in the porous deposition layer and liberated with heating, or synthesized by Fe oxide reduction with hydrogen) will form a conventional conduction pathway between the anode and cathode ?
-
Isn't there a risk in a closed cell with concentric construction that water (either adsorbed in the porous deposition layer and liberated with heating, or synthesized by Fe oxide reduction with hydrogen) will form a conventional conduction pathway between the anode and cathode ?
Yes. We evaluated this possibility using both analysis and testing several years ago and the contribution to conduction from the water vapor is at least 3-4 orders of magnitude below what we measure when we were applying a high voltage of 800 volts between the anode and cathode that were separated by 5 to 6 mm. Since the voltages produced in the LEC are typically less than one volt, we believe that any conduction due to this effect can be ignored. For reference, see H. R. Carlon, " Electrical Conductivity and Infrared Radiometry of Steam," US Army Armament Research and Development Command, ARCSL-SP-80006, Apr 1980.
-
I am not referring to the contribution through the gas, but for instance that through water adsorbed on the spacers in contact with both the cathode and the anode. The water could carry there impurities from the deposition layer or other parts and form a moderately conductive pathway.
In my admittedly crude tests I am observing something along these lines. I used planar electrodes with thin mica spacers. Although these mica spacers are insulator materials, they seem sensitive to impurities, and dirty/contaminated ones will be electrically conductive enough to easily make a voltage appear through dried electrodes, although with negligible current upon load testing. If more than trace amounts of water or impurities are present, currents ranging 10-1000 µA are easily achievable.
-
If more than trace amounts of water or impurities are present, currents ranging 10-1000 µA are easily achievable.
What you suggest is possible. We conducted several tests using both nylon and PTFE bushings and spacers. We found that the resistance of the nylon changed with temperature so we stopped using nylon. We have also conducted tests where we did not need spacers since the electrodes were separated by about 6 mm. We have not tested cells with spacers that are less than about 1 mm and would not be surprised if the very thin mica spacers might collect enough water to provide a conduction path. PTFE is hydrophobic so that might be a better material than mica. The approach that we plan to take is to remove as much water vapor from the gas and cell as possible which will not only help reduce the possibility of this conduction path but we hope that will also eliminate the voltage polarity change that we attribute to water vapor clusters attaching to the ions at temperatures above 100 C.
-
Yes. We evaluated this possibility using both analysis and testing several years ago and the contribution to conduction from the water vapor is at least 3-4 orders of magnitude below what we measure when we were applying a high voltage of 800 volts between the anode and cathode that were separated by 5 to 6 mm. Since the voltages produced in the LEC are typically less than one volt, we believe that any conduction due to this effect can be ignored. For reference, see H. R. Carlon, " Electrical Conductivity and Infrared Radiometry of Steam," US Army Armament Research and Development Command, ARCSL-SP-80006, Apr 1980.
Yes, steam or humid air are good insulators. But moist surfaces conduct the electricity.
Water vapor laden with droplets can act as the belt of a Rouland-Saint Amand generator (Perfected later by Van Der Graaf).
This is the principle behind Armstrong's hydroelectric machine. The small brass sphere is charged by the vapour jet. The voltage is bigger if the nozzle is inside an hollow aluminum sphere. I will try to found my old polaroïd pictures.
-
By machining we are able to reach today 0,01 mm tolerance without any special post treatment.
With means you seem to have, it could be easy and fast to do 2 concentric tubes spaced by 0,1 mm as done can with his mica layer but without it avoiding days and days of speculations, no ?
What you suggest is possible. We conducted several tests using both nylon and PTFE bushings and spacers. We found that the resistance of the nylon changed with temperature so we stopped using nylon. We have also conducted tests where we did not need spacers since the electrodes were separated by about 6 mm. We have not tested cells with spacers that are less than about 1 mm and would not be surprised if the very thin mica spacers might collect enough water to provide a conduction path. PTFE is hydrophobic so that might be a better material than mica. The approach that we plan to take is to remove as much water vapor from the gas and cell as possible which will not only help reduce the possibility of this conduction path but we hope that will also eliminate the voltage polarity change that we attribute to water vapor clusters attaching to the ions at temperatures above 100 C.
-
Alan Smith - Abstract for IWAHLM-14
Net Zero Scientific Ltd.
Some 200 years ago Edmund Becquerel discovered a new phenomenon, the photo-voltaic
effect, a discovery that led eventually to the modern solar panel. A development curve that took
150 years. Towards the end of the 19th century Heinrich Hertz and some contemporaries
discovered and studied the photo-electric effect, the liberation of electrons from metal surfaces
when exposed to light, and Peltier published his work on thermo-electricity.
Frank Gordon and Harper Whitehouse may have added another new chapter to this story
when they discovered and developed a device they call the Lattice Energy Converter (LEC).
Many iterations of the LEC device have demonstrated the spontaneous production of voltage
and current for sustained periods. The device offers unusual simplicity and remarkable
replicability.
The current ‘best hypothesis’ is that a LEC converts the internal energy of gases like hydrogen
or deuterium co-deposited with metals like iron, nickel, or palladium into ionizing radiation of
some kind- and thus creates extractable electrical energy. Voltage and current increases with
temperature, and the output is similar to that of a nuclear battery but without requiring normally
radioactive components. The energy levels produced by the LEC are at present several orders of
magnitude below those deemed commercially useful, but, the calculated flux of ionizing radiation
necessary to match LEC output using a conventional nuclear battery would require the use of
several curies of radi. But as this paper explains, this is not an accepted form of galvanism or a
conventional electro-chemical effect, but something different to either -
Thank you Alan Smith for your abstract especially for people as me who took the train when already left.
Some thoughts according your expectations:
The current ‘best hypothesis’ is that a LEC converts the internal energy of gases like hydrogen
or deuterium co-depositedBecause their small sizes , hydrogen and isotopes can be easily trapped inside a metal lattice.
Yes, a quick way for that is codeposition rather than electrolysis for example.
Now, can we conclude that ONLY hydrogen and isotopes should run ?
with metals like iron, nickel, or palladium
By analogy with the LENR field, the common metals used in this field were tested about the LEC way, now, we could not conclude something special about the kind of metallic specs needed ?
into ionizing radiation of some kind
That would say, these radiations are enough strong to ionize a gas up to 0,1mm at ambiant pressure .
I have to add, LEC experiments seem to be highly reproductible. in this way, a simple question, why this effect wasn't discovered earlier if so obvious ?
Now, if i can propose another explanation/hypothesis, i would say it seems that a metal loaded with an hydrogen is able to emit electrons by a simple photo electric effect because this hydrogen added lowers the threshold frequency which stay normally at UV frequencies. Here even by IRs light it seems that photoelectric effect is already generated.
Or simply the work function of metals "alloyed" with hydrogen becomes insignificant.. We know that low work function of alloys are made often as oxides.. because it's a stable matter first of all.. i don't know if anyone tested the work function of metals filled by hydrogen ?
-
http://przyrbwn.icm.edu.pl/APP/PDF/114/a114zS03.pdf
The Response of Work Function of Thin Metal Films to Interaction with Hydrogen
E. Nowicka and R. Nowakowski
Institute of Physical Chemistry, Polish Academy of Sciences
Kasprzaka 44/52, 01-224 Warszawa, Poland
The aim of this paper is to summarize the results of experiments carried
out at our laboratory on the response of the work function of several thin
films of transition metals and rare earth metals to interaction with molecular
hydrogen. The main focus concerns the description of surface phenomena
accompanying the reaction of hydride formation as a result of the adsorbate’s incorporation into the bulk of the thin films. Work function changes
∆Φ caused by adsorption and reaction concern the surface, hence this experimental method is appropriate for solving the aforementioned problem.
A differentiation is made between the work function changes ∆Φ due to creation of specific adsorption states characteristic of hydrides, and ∆Φ arising
as a result of surface defects and protrusions induced in the course of the
reaction. The topography of thin metal films and thin hydride films with
defects and protrusions was illustrated by means of atomic force microscopy.
For comparison, the paper discusses work function changes caused by H2 interaction with thin films of metals which do not form hydrides (for example
platinum), or when this interaction is performed under conditions excluding
hydride formation for thermodynamic reasons. Almost complete diminishing
of ∆Φ was observed, in spite of significant hydrogen uptake on some rare
earth metals, caused by formation of the ordered H–Y–H surface phase.
-
Cydonia, can. There is considerable food for thought here. Matt made this 'voltage recovery' table using 2 brass electrodes, 1 plated and 1 un-plated (WE and CE). They were short circuited and earthed, and when the short circuit was removed mV were measured against time. What does this suggest to you?
TIME -seconds
OUTPUT mV. 0
100mV (instantly)
30
140
60
132
90
146
120
152
150
158
180
152
-
100mV instantly it's a lot if we try a comparison with for example a Seebeck effect values several orders less.
I remain disappointed by the plating process which could keep internal stresses.
I could be relevant after plating to test an annealing then checking again the effect.
About your paper, clearly hydrogen even at surface plays a role to lower the work function.
I think too many people too quickly concluded that hydrogen inside or onto a metal lattice is simply a free H+ or an hydride.
I expect rather more often it could remain a simple H neutral by keeping his electron ( bounded) even inside the lattice.
In this way, we could see an interaction between the lattice with his electrons cloud and this neutral hydrogen tending to lower his work function.
Now, if we consider that hydrogen trapped lowers the work function, this is only IRs which induce the kinetic energy to electrons escaped.
For higher voltage we should need higher IRs frequency.
-
I think that the H2 adsorbed into some transition element metal lattices dissociates to H, and that the H electrons become part of the cloud electrons of the metal. It's hydrogen flavoured electron soup.
-
this is the common understanding this way or hydrides formation. As i said i think that a neutral H could exists too even inside the lattice. A soup isn't never fully homogeneous it's well known there is always some pieces inside aahaha.
-
What was the separation distance and in what environment? In general, I suspect that many thin spacer materials will be partially conductive through surface impurities. If there is a chemical reaction in one of the plates (e.g. desorbing H atoms causing oxide reduction) you might be observing the voltage generated by such reaction; if the materials are dissimilar, voltage due to (slow) galvanic corrosion could be observed too.
EDIT: the plated sheet oxidizes quickly so part of the observed voltage could also be from this.
EDIT: I just made a short-circuit recovery test using a roughly Fe-plated steel piece in diluted HCl solution (the usual grainy black layer was formed). Current upon load-testing was about 85 µA, decreasing to 60 µA. I dried the plate, but completely removing moisture is difficult within short periods, and the thin spacers I use will easily absorb it.
-
EDIT: the plated sheet oxidizes quickly so part of the observed voltage could also be from this.
Not a problem (in general) if you use alkaline electrolytes and rinse and dry the electrodes immediately they come out of the tank. And indeed all or part of this voltage could be artifactual but I doubt it.
Spacing here were 0.1 mm thick microscope slide cover slips, occluding about 20% of the area of the plates.
-
....
-
Not a problem (in general) if you use alkaline electrolytes and rinse and dry the electrodes immediately they come out of the tank. And indeed all or part of this voltage could be artifactual but I doubt it.
Spacing here were 0.1 mm thick microscope slide cover slips, occluding about 20% of the area of the plates.
I don't have an alkaline plating solution, but I could obtain a similarly-looking rough black surface and similar voltage results by temporarily swapping electrode polarity when using a relatively diluted KOH electrolyte solution with steel electrodes, i.e. just the result of normal electrolysis. The surface does not rust as rapidly that way.
In any case if I go great lengths avoiding moisture traces on the thin spacers and quickly rinse and dry the cathode, I get no or very little voltage (few mV) and negligible current (0.1–0.2 µA).
Ordinary glass may adsorb H atoms, something that for instance Francesco Celani suggested being an important factor in his cells (citing Langmuir: http://www.francescocelaniener…esen_Finale-MIT2014A4.pdf). Water molecules could possibly easily migrate along glass surfaces for the same reason.
....
PVD, high vacuum , quartz microbalance, etc... of course this is with much more sophisticated equipment and processes than what I am using.
I would have never tried in the first place if I didn't read of successful results with cells in air and with Fe plating on Fe.
-
NOTHING implies that deep results in natural sciences would be attainable in home basements. For not speaking of repeatibility ...
