Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

  • Nice work Alan. I have another plate in the tank right now btw , running at 2.5V and 0.15A. This one was started on monday and will run until (at least) Friday.


    I have been pondering something about the use of HCl with brass or iron cathodes. This was because Stevenson gave us the voltage data for his plates - which were brass. For a lot of the time the voltages he was using were below the Faraday limit so could not possibly break down water into H2/O2. I found this puzzling.


    HCl will chemically attack iron or brass with the evolution of hydrogen. In the case of brass you can see the colour change since it preferentially leaches out the zinc component of the alloy, leaving copper behind- the colour goes from golden to rosy pink. I do suspect the HCl method is good in that chemical hydrogen is produced at the cathode surface underneath the plating, which together with electrolytic water breakdown -= H2 deposition from both sides. Also, my long ago Chemistry tutor told me that the hydrogen produced by the action of HCl on Zinc is monatomic - but he may have been wrong about that. I know that Frank Gordon has used zinc galvanised pipes as electrodes- this may also be important.


    I am thinking of running another plate with an airstone in the tank (porous stone used in conjunction with a pump to aerate aquaria) connected in this case to a hydrogen generator. H2 is not very soluble in water but it might help to have a cloud of microscopic H2 bubbles being attracted to the cathode

  • This might be useful for anybody working down near 'the noise'


  • I found this interesting (and quite old) paper about iron plating:

    https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/jres/18/jresv18n5p535_A1b.pdf

    Contrary to the "traditional" recipe (the one based on sulphate, also suggested by Alan), here FeCl2 + HCl is used in order to obtain a good plating with an increased current density and a faster deposition speed.

    Well, it appears that electrchemistry is not a science, it seems to be more a mix between art and cooking... :D

  • Re this replication. Forgive me for asking newbie questions - but sometimes a from the start summary can be helpful anyway.


    The anomalous behaviour here, as I understand it, is that a closed gas tube with two electrodes acts as a low voltage low current source. I can understand low voltage source - but the surprise is that it conducts at all, even a little bit - because gasses should be good insulators unless ionised, and ionisation requires high voltages. (There are known surface configurations that will ionise at lower volatges but that is still 10V or so to sustain and a few 100V to start)?


    In addition the OP said ionisaing radiation had been detected. I take that with a pinch of salt if low level since false positives are quite easy - unless it was very clear (higher level). But, if it was very clear, I guess you would all be taking about it?


    So - if the above is not missing the point - which it may be - the thing to explain is how those low currents could flow through a gas cell.


    THH

  • Low X rays emitted.

  • Exactly.


    This is a look at the state of the art a month back.

    Assisi IWAHLM 2021 presentation final.pdf

    One of the useful things about that large plate area replication is that scaling issues can be considered.


    The current flowing may have a definite scaling with plate area, and plate separation. That could help inform possible mechanisms.


    These mechanisms will also scale with the cell voltage. For example, we could work out the expected I/V characteristics and scaling from ionised particles emitted from a plate that move a given average distance through the hydrogen before coming to rest.


    I have a vague idea for mechanism. I'm not material scientist and this is possibly way off beam. Suppose the flaky deposited surface contains nanoparticles that are loose and can be released from the surface. The mechanisms for this could leave a charge on the particle. A continuous stream of such particles could provide the mystery current. For example, the continued diffusion of hydrogen into the Pd surface could create structural changes that sometimes released particles.


    THH

  • Thinking about scaling, a single cell that, without changing plates, could have place separation adjusted would provide interesting information on scaling: how does voltage/resistance vary with separation?


    Another issue. Is the cell accurately represented (at a given time, when it is relatively stable) by a voltage source in series with a resistor? Or is there non-linearity - if so what is its shape? V/I curves with current out of the cell both positive and negative would provide useful information. Some mechanisms would give different resistances in the two directions, acting as a rectifier. V/I curves at significantly larger voltages - say up to 10V, would help narrow down what the conduction mechanism actually was.


    Apologies if this is all known / has already been done.


    THH

  • THHuxleynew , if you want to get up to speed, and have a perspective from an skeptical point of view, I encourage you to read posts of Stevenson within this thread, he did a series of dummy cell measurements that set the baseline, and then proceeded with an iron plated co deposited experiment that worked well until the iron rusted.


    Also the paper from Rout, Srinivasan et al about x ray fogging by hydrogen loaded Pd is highly recommended. Has been posted several times in this thread.

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Update for LEC cell #5: full details are available at https://tinyurl.com/69z7sn3e


    After overnight dwell at 1 megohm load, during which the voltage dropped only slightly, to 366 mV, the cell was pumped out using the installed vacuum system. With pumping, the voltage declined starting at 50 Torr and reached 50 uV at 2 Torr. It took several hours to reach 10E-4 Torr and ~5 uV, possibly slowed by retained water or H coming out of the plating. H2 was added at 1 bar, but the cell voltage did not return.


    After 24 hours the cell resistance was measured to be just 5 ohms, so it was disassembled for inspection. Fragments of the Iron layer had detached from the brass cathode surface and the resulting metallic particles had shorted the cell. It seems possible that this resulted from expansion of entrapped water and/or gas when vacuum was applied.

    bvlgtE-aiyO8h0wan3GaL21FWmtuZnnMS_rFNIUJuK0yuKLnkOIb-bd1b6u1GAildvtu8zirihD8Fla5AE6cqOH3YihHTD8b4fMyDQ5HO0LlKgiOEWUoFJvfd1apXJyxZP9BcjeQ=s0


    Brushing lightly with a wire brush removed much of the remaining plated Iron, showing that adhesion of the plating was not perfect. Most of the residue was collected with a magnet. Some non-magnetic rust residue was also present, confirming a significant amount of water had probably been trapped under or inside the plated surface. A thin layer of Iron remained well-adhered to some parts of the surface.

    dRzK_SUezJv1lRtGOcpEom2XlF6JqFlgQ-ka7vLGVpu2_wpd7IqZkDcsxXz6tyIHAUc_l2NPL-fG3_2fa0_ZZrPC1G4hRpHgbMAyfbli3fJ4iVdiH2wLqG1vmdbqldU6mOhDdWl_=s0

    Regarding Huxley's comments, it's clear from the results above that electrolytic effects within these cells can be easily misinterpreted as a LEC effect. In particular, with the presence of Iron and entrapped water, physical disturbance or growth of the plated layer seems unavoidable. Some further testing of this potential problem is now underway in my lab.

  • magicsound


    The routine methods to improve adhesion of plating are to clean/degrease the plate thoroughly- often an acid pickle is used for this followed by a wipe with solvent. I'm sure you have done this though.


    The second thing is to raise the voltage above the norm for the first few minutes- called the 'strike voltage'. Hard for me to give any values for this, since it is at some level craft and not science.

  • I'm sure you have done this though

    Yes. For test6 I washed a new cathode tube in solvent, then pickled for 60 sec in 20% HCl and rinsed.


    The plating solution was 16 g ferrous sulphate, 16 g sodium citrate and 18 ml 20% ammonia in 1 liter. A smooth coating of Iron was achieved after 18 hours at 1.35 Volts 180 mA. The cathode tube was rinsed and dried carefully with hot air, then a few visible areas of loose Iron powder were removed with a soft brush prior to assembling the cell.



    This cell showed no activity above the bias current of the measurement device (180 mV at 10 megohms). Vacuum was applied after several hours, reaching 10E-4 Torr in about 30 minutes, without the difficulty seen in test5. Hydrogen was then added at 2 bar. After 24 hours there was no change in the cell voltage.

  • The mechanisms for this could leave a charge on the particle. A continuous stream of such particles could provide the mystery current.

    This kind of mechanism would allow a unidirectional current only (like in a diode). Instead the LEC is capable of conducting current in both directions, when an external voltage is applied. This current is linear up to a certain value, than start to saturate. This is exactly what would be expected from a ionised gas (where both positive and negative charges are present).

  • Today I finally made a "reload" test: I tryed to load with electrolytic hydrogen my old LEC (the one that produced the effect in June, but then exausted due to hydrogen unloading and/or oxidation).

    I placed the old WE in tap water together with an iron wire. The WE was used as a cathode, while the iron wire as the anode. I applied 2.0 V DC and the current slowly increased to about 20 mA. These current and voltage was maintained for 4 hours. A quiet, continuous and uniform hydrogen evolution was visible on the cathode all the time. After 4 hours I took out the WE, rinsed and accurately dryed it and inserted it into the CE.

    No voltage was generated.

    Previously, I tryed to load a simple and clean iron rod with hydrogen without additional plating, obtaining the same result (I wrote a short post on that). This is a further confirmation that the codeposition is essential to get the effect.


    Apart from the primary result, this test was also useful as an additional control experiment: a procedure that was almost identical to the one that allowed to obtain the working LEC (comprising all the wet/dirty stuff, cleaning, rinsing, drying etc.) do not produced any voltage. This is an additional indication that the effect was not due to moisture, wetting, impurities or similar artifacts.