Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

Stevenson

With thick oxide layer I mean one deliberately formed and of thickness of about the same level of that obtained by effective electrodeposition, though if you already tried without any change, there's nothing relevant to this thread that I think I can add.

Here's another data point:

9 October 2021 Test Cell #7

The brass cathode tube from test #5 was lathe-turned, removing the previously plated iron layer and about 0.1 mm of the brass, to present a clean surface for plating. No solvent or other cleaning was applied. The tube was plated with the electrolyte from test #6 diluted 40%. After plating at 1.28 V 90 mA for 48 hours, a smooth layer of iron about 0.2 mm thick was seen. Evolution of hydrogen during the plating was shown by a thin layer of foam at the surface of the electrolyte, and confirmed by a sensitive combustible gas detector.

After plating the tube was rinsed in tap water and dried with compressed air, but no heat was used. Surface rust began to appear after about five minutes. The cell was immediately assembled and installed in the test chamber, which was then flushed with hydrogen at 1 bar. Initial voltage was 166 mV at 10 megohms, the background level from DAQ input bias current. The cell voltage was unchanged after 12 hours.

I see apparently a lot of difficulties by chemical way to trap hydrogen inside a metal.

Why don't fill a metal when highly heated ( above 700°) as well as hydrogen will be able easily to cross across it, then making a quick cooling (in ambiant water) to keep the trap ?

Austenitic steels should be very good for that.

Maybe the Hydrogen filling rate should be lower than the current method, i don't know.

Cydonia

I think that could be possibly easily accomplished with plasma electrolysis and pulsed currents, although large pieces will require very large currents. Below is a test from several months ago done with a steel cutter blade. Temperatures were definitely above 700 °C.

EDIT: In the test depicted here I used about 72V and 8–10A in moderately concentrated K2CO3 and the steel blade was 9 mm wide and 0.5 mm thick. A brief video from which these images were taken is available.

A general useful read pertaining to hydrogen in steel in practical environments. Some information could be applicable to LEC replications: Hydrogen in Steels – IspatGuru

In particular, perhaps what is suggested in this excerpt could be taken advantage of for increasing hydrogen absorption in the co-deposition step:

Quote

[...] Steel in solid state can also absorb H through the action of electrochemical reactions taking place on the surface of the steel. The most common examples for of this phenomena are pickling, electroplating, cathodic protection, and corrosion. H liberated during electrochemical reactions, is partly absorbed by the surface of steel before it recombines to harmless hydrogen bubbles. Presence of sulfides, arsenides, phosphides, and selenides in the electrolyte assists the absorption of H in the steels because of inhibiting nature of these compounds for the recombination reaction of H.

Well, after a night of thinking in fact i thought not so relevant the idea of hydrogen trapped inside an hot lattice then cooled.

If we use a chemical way, indeed, the host metal lattice will trap both an hydrogen atom not especially an H2.

So, we could imagine in this case that maintly H monoatomic could be trapped, it couldn't be the case in my previous hypothesis by which we should except full H recombination.

So in this case of chemical deposit, all H monoatomic could be well separated from each others and could become relatively "stable" i expect ( against recombination) .

Even if with time it will migrate finally however this should need a relatively long time i think.

In this way i could imagine this highly reactive H mono could react with an host atom then both should transmute to produce X rays in the end.

In this way, a better choice ( isotopes ) of host metal should be considered to improve the effect, i propose.

As far as I am aware of, H usually penetrates into the metallic lattice in atomic form, unless it recombines to molecular H2 inside large enough cavities in the material. Recombination of atomic to the molecular form inside the metal is the main cause of blistering in steels and other metals permeable to hydrogen, and as the link above suggests, it may cause large internal stresses that may exceed the yield strength (YS) of the material:

Quote

[...] Normally, problems of H in steels are related to the formation of flakes, the occurrence of break-outs during in continuous casting and to H embrittlement. The detrimental effect of H is due to its solubility behaviour. The solubility of H in liquid steel is considerably higher than in solid steel. Due to it diatomic H is formed during cooling and solidification of the steel. The H gas creates pressure sites in the steel matrix, which may give rise to failure or surface defects.

H remaining after steel making migrates to internal defects where it recombines to form gaseous H2. The pressures exerted by this precipitated H can be substantial. As an example, if liquid steel contains H at a level of around 10 ppm, pressures exceeding the YS are generated before the steel is cooled to room temperature. This results into the formation of flakes. Ni bearing steels are particularly susceptible to flaking, but in general H contents below 2.5 ml/100 gm are considered safe.

Perhaps this could make a case for not having a too smooth deposition layer. If some larger cavities remain, H may recombine there and increase stresses and pressure (it seems desirable for LENR purposes?).

i think it remains the key...

3 options:

1- H mono penetrated become "amas condensed" H2 ( beta phasis)

2- H mono penetrated become "well separated" H2 ( alpha phasis).

3- H mono penetrated remains "well separated" H mono.

In this last option i expect that codeposition process should do amorphous lattice more able to stabilize H monos..

At other side, by a perfect and regular cristal lattice H mono loaded should move more easily helping the recombination.

In the past two tests a visually smooth and robust layer of iron plating was obtained using diluted electrolyte with just over the standard cell potential of 1.23 volts for water. For those tests, anodes of pure Fe were used, and neither cell showed any LEC effect.

The successful tests reported by others apparently used mild steel anodes, which would include small amounts of carbon, silicon and manganese as well as traces of sulfur and phosphorous. Could the presence of such elements at less than 1% play a role in the phenomenon?

Quote from JedRothwell

Yup. Ed confirmed this.

In my own words:

A gap large enough to hold recombined D2 gas inside the lattice is too big for his model. It has to be smaller than that. He wants individual deuterons lining up in a row, not D2 molecules. (Deuterons or "H mono" as Cydonia calls them above.) The cracks forming around a large gap would also be too big.

To clarify what I meant, I did not suggest that LENR would be occurring inside large gaps where hydrogen can recombine to H2 (or D2), but that such large gaps would possibly help increasing stress and pressure elsewhere in the same lattice, i.e. the small gaps where LENR does occur. In other words, perhaps a mixture of small and large gaps could be beneficial, although this is probably easier said than achieved in practice. It's only a loose idea, though.

Quote from magicsound

In the past two tests a visually smooth and robust layer of iron plating was obtained using diluted electrolyte with just over the standard cell potential of 1.23 volts for water. For those tests, anodes of pure Fe were used, and neither cell showed any LEC effect.

The successful tests reported by others apparently used mild steel anodes, which would include small amounts of carbon, silicon and manganese as well as traces of sulfur and phosphorous. Could the presence of such elements at less than 1% play a role in the phenomenon?

Perhaps carbon? For what it's worth, Frank Gordon has reported a few months ago that an experimenter who tried adding alcohol saw increased results.

Post

RE: Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

This is an interesting article and thank you for bringing it to our attention but without more information, we don't know how to compare it to a LEC. In one LEC replication, a leak allowed some alcohol vapor to get inside. The voltage increased but we don't know if this was a temporary increase or what the reaction might have been that caused the increase. Perhaps an electrochemist in the community could explain the energy balance required for the reaction.

Frank Gordon

Jun 7th 2021

Well,

Storms proposal considers a reaction between 2 D together then what i suggest is rather a reaction between a simple H ( not H2) with an atom from the metal lattice to generate X rays.

As magicsound said to not have seen any effect with only simple iron, i suggest the isotope involvement rather than another species as carbon, sulfur or phosphorous.

i remember this old paper from CEA retired by which they propose this way.

You should use Google document translation to leave from the french.

i can send the native .doc for people who should ask me.

Quote from Alan Smith

Hi - right now the LEC is indeed 'interesting but not useful'. But the purpose of scientific investigation is to make it both interesting AND useful.

The purpose of scientific investiation is to understand what is going on.

After that - it has more chance of being useful.

I have two ideas for a mechanism but my knowledge of chemistry is not good enough, so maybe they are rubbish, and likely they has been raised in these 48 pages already.

1. Pd is a well-known catalyst. Suppose vacancies in a Pd surface can at a small rate catalyse something that generates ions. Straight electron or proton generation from H2 is a big ask due to tight binding but maybe not impossible? Free electron or proton generation from some more complex reaction is also possible, especially if the atmosphere contains impurities. That might make for low-level ionisation. Palladium vacancies can do weird things.

2. There is also: https://www.spacefoundation.or…catalytic-ionization-rci/ radiant photocatalytic ioniszation. That might be relevant.

The voltage, and it possibly reversing, could be varying rates of this catalysis happening, or something else...

Best wishes, THH

Bad plating! This done using the ferrous sulphate based electrolyte -2.2 volts and 0.1A for 8 days. Thick plating, but very poor adhesion.

Have you already considered scratching the plate surface?

One might divide the plate into sections, say 3 by 3. Then proceed to abrade each area using different methods - or grits.

I wonder if rolling a knurler over the plate might be useful? Or perhaps access to a shaper could get the job done.

"Brass is difficult to file because it is softer than steel, but tough. This

demands teeth that are sharp, sturdy and cut to prevent grooving
and running the file off the work. The Brass file has a short upcut
angle and a fine long angle over-cut which produces small scallops
to break up filings and enable the file to clear. With pressure, the
sharp high-cut teeth bite deep, with less pressure, the short upcut
angle smoothes."

Please forgive me if this is something you have already explored, Alan.

Quote from Alan Smith

Bad plating! This done using the ferrous sulphate based electrolyte -2.2 volts and 0.1A for 8 days. Thick plating, but very poor adhesion.

I had best results with diluted plating solution and 1.3 volts, just enough to make some hydrogen appear. After several days at 90 mA the resulting plated layer was well adhered and smooth.

Quote from nickec

Have you already considered scratching the plate surface?

One might divide the plate into sections, say 3 by 3. Then proceed to abrade each area using different methods - or grits.

I wonder if rolling a knurler over the plate might be useful? Or perhaps access to a shaper could get the job done.

"Brass is difficult to file because it is softer than steel, but tough. This

demands teeth that are sharp, sturdy and cut to prevent grooving
and running the file off the work. The Brass file has a short upcut
angle and a fine long angle over-cut which produces small scallops
to break up filings and enable the file to clear. With pressure, the
sharp high-cut teeth bite deep, with less pressure, the short upcut
angle smoothes."

Please forgive me if this is something you have already explored, Alan.

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You are entirely forgiven .This was - as magicsound intimates, a result of too high a voltage for too long. I have had quite a few business meetings away from the lab and this got rather neglected.

As for filing, difficult on a thin flat plate, but I burnish the plate with 600 grit abrasive paper, scrub it under hot water and then degrease with alchohol. It normally works.

BTW- the regular and rectangular pattern of cracking is interesting -and a puzzle.

In the previous weeks I tested a number of "variations" that do not produced any voltage (0.0 +-0.1 mV). These variation were for example loading plain iron rods with hydrogen (electrolytically), reloading my old WE with hydrogen (without plating), and similar things. These tests, even bringing a zero result, provided a couple of valuable information: 1) up to now the effect seems to require a proper full co-deposition, otherwise it won't manifest; 2) when no effect is present a stubborn 0.0 mV is seen on my multimeter, no possibility of error;

So, after continously seeing this 0.0 mV in many experiments, I wonted to repeat the original experiment, to check if the "magic" would happen again.

I repeated the exact protocol that I've followed in June, with some minor variations (e.g. I used the old WE, without even cleaning it from the old plating, and I used a slightly different anode configuration). The plating process proceded just like the first time, with about 4 hours of hydrogen evolution but no plating, and the remaining 4 hour with the formation of a black layer. Also the strange magnetization of the WE at the end was the same.

When the LEC was assembled, the voltage re-appeared! It slowly increased to about 100 mV, then dropped in half an hour to about 35-40 mV, and it settled there for many hours. After about 1 hour, I filled the LEC with hydrogen (flushing out the air) to prevent the fast oxidation. The hydrogen apparently caused a slight drop in the voltage (about 5 mV). The voltage however persisted for about 3 days, even decreasing over time.

After the 3rd day I opened the LEC and found the WE *completely* oxidized: no trace of metallic iron, the black layer competely turned to orange iron oxide (rust). This iron oxide was perfecly in place, well attached to the brass as the black layer was. During the operation, I checked from time to time the conductivity of the device and I always found an open circuit, so no conductive path were formed during the oxidation process (by means of detached flakes or something like that).

In conclusion, the effect is repeatable. However it is a bit difficult to control: small process variations may produce different results, and the fast oxidation is definitely a problem (at least with the acidic plating).

Next step will be trying the original Frank's FeCl2 recipe.

James Patterson planted a lot of seeds with his thin beads... His thin plating skills were considered cutting edge. He applied those skills to create multiple metallic thin layers in early successful cold fusion experiments in ways similar to those here (LEC). Lawrence Forsley knew him well and studied his works. His plating and co-deposition methods were pioneering. Perhaps useful to read up on. Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbon rings in the layering mix may be worth revisiting now.

My Recollections of Jim Patterson

By Lawrence P. G. Forsley

March 10th 2008

New Energy Times

Issue#27

New Energy Times Issue #27

https://e-catworld.com › 2013/04/24

Notice from Francesco Celani on Hydrocarbons in LENR | E-Cat World

Apr 24, 2013 — Is it just me or did not the Widom Larsen theory predict this??? Would be nice with some input from the e-catworld experts :).

http://blog.lege.net › Free_Energy

LENR - Widom-Larsen Theory Portal

The Widom-Larsen Ultra-Low-Momentum Neutron Catalyzed Theory of Low-Energy ... meets chemistry - Mizuno experiments with polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.

https://coldfusionnow.org › tag › he...

Tag: heavy electron - COLD FUSION NOW!

The NASA LENR patent is for a device to produce heavy electrons thereby sustaining LENR and ensuing energy generation. In this slideshow, a Widom Larson .