Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop
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Thanks, although I don't see myself repeating similar tests in the near term using higher-concentration HCl if not only I have to deal with the annoying FeCl solution disposal process, but also preventing the surrounding environment from turning yellow—even if this is probably mainly an issue with higher current densities causing gas generation and some volatilization of the electrolyte solution in the environment.
I hope that at least the tests (with the major help of the published documents linked earlier) have shown that with some amounts of starting FeCl2 in the solution and higher (still far from extreme) current densities it should not be not too difficult or slow to deposit Fe on various materials, although specific results may require reasonably controlled plating variables.
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Hi
I am new to the LENR Forum, but I have had a pretty good look at the site content and structure. The pursuit of practical cold fusion technology that could benefit mankind is certainly a worthwhile cause. Even by experimenting with cold fusion possibilities may lead to useful technologies that aren’t distinctly cold fusion, and that would be a positive outcome as well.
Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)" has caught my eye. The increased electric current generation demonstrated in his 2020 video looks quite promising. However, I would like to suggest some alternative interpretation of the processes at work here that are related to ortho-hydrogen to para-hydrogen conversion and vice versa.
H2 is considered to be a molecule consisting of two hydrogen atoms. It comes in two forms: ortho-H2 (same-spin hydrogen atoms) and para- H2 (opposite spin hydrogen atoms). In hydrogen gas approximately at room temperature (24OC say)and above, the gas contains 75% ortho-hydrogen to 25% para-hydrogen, with the percentage of para-hydrogen increasing by reducing temperatures below 24OC, with solidified hydrogen gas being 100% para hydrogen as 0OK is approached.
At all temperatures above 0OK, para↔ortho hydrogen conversion is taking place, but stabilising around 24OC. The conversion process involves the breaking of the hydrogen bond, which releases an electron and two protons, is an ionisation process. As temperature of the mix increases (i.e. when Frank heats up the apparatus), the rate of conversion is increased significantly, as are the number of released electrons, but the para to ortho hydrogen ratio is still maintained at 3 to 1.
Palladium acts as a storage medium for hydrogen, being able up can store up to about 900% its volume of H2 gas. With the internal surface having palladium deposits, what I believe is happening is that the electrons needed to support the increased electric current are being randomly produced by the para↔ortho hydrogen conversion process within the palladium, rather than a process related to cold fusion and/or the creation of deuterium. Whichever way, it certainly looks to be a promising bit of technology.
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Similar results have been obtained by Frank Gordon not just with palladium but also iron deposits, which is what people have been focused on the most for their Lattice Energy Converter (LEC) replications reported in this thread, so it appears that the hydrogen storing capabilities of palladium are not required.
On the other hand, it is reported that iron oxide catalysts or carbon in the form of activated charcoal are often used (below room temperature) for converting orthohydrogen to parahydrogen, therefore iron plating (which can oxidize during or after plating, and include carbon from organic compounds in the plating solution) may still be related to your suggestion:
Spin isomers of hydrogen - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.orgQuote[...] A mixture or 50:50 mixture of ortho- and parahydrogen can be made in the laboratory by passing it over an iron(III) oxide catalyst at liquid nitrogen temperature (77 K)[3] or by storing hydrogen at 77 K for 2–3 hours in the presence of activated charcoal.[4] In the absence of a catalyst, gas phase parahydrogen takes days to relax to normal hydrogen at room temperature while it takes hours to do so in organic solvents.[4]
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Palladium acts as a storage medium for hydrogen, being able up can store up to about 900% its volume of H2 gas. With the internal surface having palladium deposits, what I believe is happening is that the electrons needed to support the increased electric current are being randomly produced by the para↔ortho hydrogen conversion process within the palladium, rather than a process related to cold fusion and/or the creation of deuterium. Whichever way, it certainly looks to be a promising bit of technology.
Welcome to the discussion!
This is an interesting speculation, and the para-ortho process might explain some of the effects we see, but against this is the fact that the system stops working in a vacuum -even though there is still adsorbed hydrogen present in the lattice. The voltage re-appears when normal pressure is restored. There being no reason AFAIK for the emitted electrons from down-conversion not to join the electron cloud in the substrate metal that forms the working electrode I suspect that there would be residual voltage even in a vacuum - which we have yet to see.
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the system stops working in a vacuum -even though there is still adsorbed hydrogen present in the lattice
This might simply imply that the electrons need to attach to a molecule, and so the charge movement is closer to ionic movement as in a chemical battery as opposed to electron movement as in a diode.In a vacuum molecules are scarce.
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Innerspace , welcome and thanks for bringing your hypothesis to our attention. It’s always nice to see new members engaging in the discussion with interesting view points.
About your hypothesis, can you suggest an energy source and boundary of how much one could extract from it, in order to see how long would the reaction keep going?
How would you explain the x ray fogging observed by Rout et al with hydrogen loaded Pd?
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This might simply imply that the electrons need to attach to a molecule, and so the charge movement is closer to ionic movement as in a chemical battery as opposed to electron movement as in a diode.In a vacuum molecules are scarce.
Indeed- it's a nuclear battery.
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can you suggest an energy source and boundary of how much one could extract from it, in order to see how long would the reaction keep going?
The suggested source is the para↔
It would possibly continue indefinitely as long as the para↔ortho hydrogen conversion process is still possible. This is one of the main reasons why I find it so interesting.
QuoteIndeed- it's a nuclear battery.
I would term it a hydrogen battery, but unfortunately this has other connotations.
QuoteHow would you explain the x ray fogging observed by Rout et al with hydrogen loaded Pd?
I would never claim to have all the answers. I was surprised how short Rout's paper was and I would have liked a bit more info.
My suspicion is that it is due to the released electrons occasionally causing the B+ decay (or electron capture) of para-hydrogen molecules to create deuterium molecules. This view, I suspect, will be quite contentious.
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The suggested source is the para↔
It would possibly continue indefinitely as long as the para↔ortho hydrogen conversion process is still possible. This is one of the main reasons why I find it so interesting.
I would term it a hydrogen battery, but unfortunately this has other connotations.
I would never claim to have all the answers. I was surprised how short Rout's paper was and I would have liked a bit more info.
My suspicion is that it is due to the released electrons occasionally causing the B+ decay (or electron capture) of para-hydrogen molecules to create deuterium molecules. This view, I suspect, will be quite contentious.
Thanks for your answer. About the energy source, I am talking about the underlying mechanism, it’s environmental energy making the shift between the two hydrogen states? It has to be coming from somewhere else.
About the Rout et al paper, perhaps you have the condensed version available at LENR-CANR, I managed to get the original publication which is not short at all. Will see if can fetch it for you.
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Innerspace , here is the Fusion Technology version of the Rout et al 1996 paper. I renamed the article file to suit my own archival purposes, in case anyone notices.
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what I believe is happening is that the electrons needed to support the increased electric current are being randomly produced by the para↔ortho hydrogen conversion process within the palladium
This is an interesting and relatively new idea. However I think the energy associated with the nuclear spin is too low to account for the observed phenomena. Moreover the LEC conductivity is aproximateively proportional to the gas pressure (even when using air): this imply that the gas is involved in the process, not just the occluded hydrogen, that cannot be accounted for the relatively large conductivity observed. Lastly, the isomer hypothesis would imply that just Pd or Fe and hydrogen would be sufficient so produce the effect (the co-deposition being irrelevant), that is not the case.
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Thank you for that link Curbina: it certainly has more detail than the brief copy I looked at.
Curbina wrote...
Quotethe underlying mechanism, it’s environmental energy making the shift between the two hydrogen states? It has to be coming from somewhere else.
I think that several interrelated processes are at work here. Firstly, there is the ionization effect of the para↔ortho hydrogen conversion process. This is the key process that makes the increased current flow possible.
Secondly, the electrons would seem to attach to molecules in the host gas (e.g. air). Under the applied voltage this causes ionic-based current flow. Current flow ceases in a vacuum.
Thirdly, there is the fogging, which has little to do with what is of interest: the increased current flow of the LEC. In the palladium-confined space, the speculation is that many electrons gain sufficient velocity to cause the B+ decay (or electron capture) of para-hydrogen molecules, so creating deuterium molecules. This process would release positrons that may in turn B- convert deuterium back into hydrogen or result in gamma rays via electron/positron annihilation. A equilibrium would most likely be established for these two inverse processes.I find that, even in the fuller version of Rout's paper, he devotes too much attention to the film fogging. His arguments for the elimination of electrons and Beta particles is very terse and do not match the figure 4 graphs. But, as stated above, the fogging is relatively unimportant in terms of the increase of electric current, which is the real gem.
Stevenson wrote...
Quotethe LEC conductivity is approximatively proportional to the gas pressure (even when using air): this imply that the gas is involved in the process, not just the occluded hydrogen, that cannot be accounted for the relatively large conductivity observed.
The gas would almost certainly be involved as described above.
Stevenson wrote...
Quotethe isomer hypothesis would imply that just Pd or Fe and hydrogen would be sufficient so produce the effect (the co-deposition being irrelevant), that is not the case
You are perhaps overlooking the packing of H and D into the palladium lattice. A similar effect occurs for nickel and titanium, but with far less absorbed H/D resulting in far less spectacular results.
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Perhaps of interest.
Also
A curious similarity in names.
Also
Both with deep roots in the Austin Texas metropolitan region.
Also... I'm wondering about this
One produces equipment that Lawrence Forsley, Chief Scientist at Global Energy Corporation, might be using. Maybe some replicators on this thread will find reasons for wanting one in their laboratory, which would support my reasoning on GEC use of the GEC Solutions ENDURA® PVD equipment
💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Global Energy Corporation (GEC)
GEC at gec solutions home dot com
ICCF-21 - Lawrence Forsley - Space Application of a Hybrid Fusion-Fission Reactor 2018Oct 27
External Content m.youtube.comContent embedded from external sources will not be displayed without your consent.Through the activation of external content, you agree that personal data may be transferred to third party platforms. We have provided more information on this in our privacy policy.💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
GEC Solutions at gec sol dot com
GEC SOLUTIONS
ENDURA® PVD
The Applied Endura platform is the most successful metallization system in the history of the semiconductor industry
Endura® PVD | Applied Materials
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GB Goble wrote...
QuotePerhaps of interest. Also A curious similarity in names. Also Both with deep roots in the Austin Texas metropolitan region
Which is totally a mystery to me, but thank you for the Lawrence Forsley video - that I found interesting. I was a bit surprised that he was mainly talking about mini-fision setups than fusion.
In the video he show a reference to the 2010 Mosier-Boss et al paper 'Comparison of Pd/D co-deposition and DT neutron generated triple tracks observed in CR-39 detectors' which seemed more on subject.
This paper is pretty thorough in confirming the creation of a triple tracks from Pd/D co-deposition experiments. Triple tracks are purported to be due to the 12C(n,n'3a) fission of cubic C-12 atoms (I don't think it would occur for hexagonal graphite carbon), and the paper points out their similarity in form to the DT generated neutrons. The energy of neutrons responsible for the Pd/D triple tracks would seem to be 13.5 MeV or greater.
So, the name of the game would seem to be able to increase the number and energy of neutrons from the Pd/H process, and thus increase the number of C-12 atoms smashed and the energy so produced.
So, if my explanation for the increase in current for the Pd/H process is correct, which it may well not be, then how can an increase in atom smashing be achieved? What comes to mind is:
- Increase the cubic C-12 density in the neutron targets (no info on C-12 density in CR-39s) to maximize the probability of a neutron strike.
- Expose the Pd to an electron source (a simple electron gun would probably do). This is to increase the B+ decay (or electron capture) of para-hydrogen molecules, so creating more deuterium molecules that have the possibility of creating more neutrons as the deuterium molecules are split by internal buffeting (as do H2 molecules). The increase in current flow might help to power the gun, and the gun might also provide an energy-output control mechanism should the approach work.
- Keep the apparatus as heated as possible to increase the kinetic energy of the H2 mix within the Pd deposits.
Perhaps some of the first 2 measures have been tried already; I am sure someone will know if they have.
That's my penny-worth for now.
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for more on Pd/d codep, and the research goals of Forsley et al:
(PDF) A Synopsis of Nuclear Reactions in Condensed MatterPDF | We have sought to identify, characterize, elucidate and apply condensed matter nuclear reactions using the US patented co-deposition protocol,... | Find,…www.researchgate.net -
Ouch. That's a lot of reading that I suspect I don't have time for. From your readings has target C-12 type and atomic density factors been under consideration, or electron streams been used to increase the neutron hit rate and/or energy levels? But otherwise, thanks for the reference summary on the subject. It should prove useful over time.
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On a more practical topic, I attempted checking out with the few ml 10% HCl leftover I had if I could make FeCl3 using Fe2O3 (in the form of red pigment) so that it could be eventually converted into FeCl2 without gas generation, but it seems much slower than trying to dissolve high-surface area iron (steel wool, etc) in the same solution.
Just dissolving Fe in HCl solution would normally be fine, but the H2 gas evolved in the reaction (Fe + 2HCl => FeCl2 + H2) appears to carry away either HCl solution or Cl gas that easily escapes the container (not sealed to avoid gas buildup), so without a fume hood or by doing it in an open environment after a while the odor becomes unbearable and there's a risk of corroding all metal parts in the surroundings.
So, probably the next best accessible method for obtaining FeCl2 solution without going through that could be acquiring FeCl3 etchant solution and converting it to FeCl2 by dropping a steel wool (or other finely divided Fe) into it, perhaps after adjusting the pH down.
Of course, ideally one would use FeCl2 anhydrous in the required amounts, but it isn't so simple to come by.
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Perhaps some of the first 2 measures have been tried already; I am sure someone will know if they have.
I'm purely a layman...
Often wondered what a little bit of finely ground quality raw uranium ore, or perhaps thorium sand provides in GEC reactors. Might fissile material do the trick for you too? Also, will fissile nanoparticles mitigate or limit the vessel destructive aspect EVO's... if any?
Interesting that GEC states their successful development of a non-fissile CMNS energy reactor core as well as the earlier fissile core. (NASASpace Act Aggrement addendum
NASA LCF, GEC, NSWC IHD, and perhaps even Munday Labs/Google Inc. present a concerted effort which is well advanced.
A deep study of these groups patents and referenced papers is warranted.
On a more practical and on topic vector...
You recommend an electron gun.
Will a photon gun do.
Is electrolysis the best way to build an LEC reactor?
Or the NASA LCF, GEC, or Google Inc reactor core's layered/lattice metamaterial structure?
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So, probably the next best accessible method for obtaining FeCl2 solution without going through that could be acquiring FeCl3 etchant solution and converting it to FeCl2 by dropping a steel wool (or other finely divided Fe) into it, perhaps after adjusting the pH down.
Just reporting that this seemed to work fine for diluted FeCl3 (it looked clear strong yellow in my case), turning it within a few hours at room temperature into a rather pale greenish liquid. I don't know if it would work as well for concentrated FeCl3 solutions (often dark/opaque brown-yellow). After more time it turns pale emerald green (not pictured here).
Eventually I made a brief deposition test with this FeCl2 solution made from scratch, producing a bright-looking Fe deposition layer on a scrap copper piece within a few minutes. So it again seems reproducible, but at very low (mA) currents it will probably take a very long time. I used up to 2.8A for the immersed 2.8x1.5 cm Cu surface here (0.67A/cm2), which is still within the range suggested in the paper I previously linked.
To remove electrolyte residues I used a rather diluted KOH solution, which worked well in the first attempt for the above photo, but in the second attempt the hydroxide precipitates left in the solution (I believe) stained the piece seconds after I took it out of the solution and dried it as done earlier. This appears to occur more easily with KOH than with NaHCO3 but in either case the rinsing solution should be preferably clean to avoid similar issues.
Whether such smooth (disregarding the stains) deposition layer would well for the LEC effect it's unclear, but it didn't emit brittle cracking noises like the dark one formed earlier under different plating conditions.
