Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop

  • Thanks for your answer. About the energy source, I am talking about the underlying mechanism, it’s environmental energy making the shift between the two hydrogen states? It has to be coming from somewhere else.


    About the Rout et al paper, perhaps you have the condensed version available at LENR-CANR, I managed to get the original publication which is not short at all. Will see if can fetch it for you.

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • what I believe is happening is that the electrons needed to support the increased electric current are being randomly produced by the para↔ortho hydrogen conversion process within the palladium

    This is an interesting and relatively new idea. However I think the energy associated with the nuclear spin is too low to account for the observed phenomena. Moreover the LEC conductivity is aproximateively proportional to the gas pressure (even when using air): this imply that the gas is involved in the process, not just the occluded hydrogen, that cannot be accounted for the relatively large conductivity observed. Lastly, the isomer hypothesis would imply that just Pd or Fe and hydrogen would be sufficient so produce the effect (the co-deposition being irrelevant), that is not the case.

  • Thank you for that link Curbina: it certainly has more detail than the brief copy I looked at.


    Curbina wrote...

    Quote

    the underlying mechanism, it’s environmental energy making the shift between the two hydrogen states? It has to be coming from somewhere else.

    I think that several interrelated processes are at work here. Firstly, there is the ionization effect of the para↔ortho hydrogen conversion process. This is the key process that makes the increased current flow possible.


    Secondly, the electrons would seem to attach to molecules in the host gas (e.g. air). Under the applied voltage this causes ionic-based current flow. Current flow ceases in a vacuum.


    Thirdly, there is the fogging, which has little to do with what is of interest: the increased current flow of the LEC. In the palladium-confined space, the speculation is that many electrons gain sufficient velocity to cause the B+ decay (or electron capture) of para-hydrogen molecules, so creating deuterium molecules. This process would release positrons that may in turn B- convert deuterium back into hydrogen or result in gamma rays via electron/positron annihilation. A equilibrium would most likely be established for these two inverse processes.


    I find that, even in the fuller version of Rout's paper, he devotes too much attention to the film fogging. His arguments for the elimination of electrons and Beta particles is very terse and do not match the figure 4 graphs. But, as stated above, the fogging is relatively unimportant in terms of the increase of electric current, which is the real gem.



    Stevenson wrote...

    Quote

    the LEC conductivity is approximatively proportional to the gas pressure (even when using air): this imply that the gas is involved in the process, not just the occluded hydrogen, that cannot be accounted for the relatively large conductivity observed.

    The gas would almost certainly be involved as described above.


    Stevenson wrote...

    Quote

    the isomer hypothesis would imply that just Pd or Fe and hydrogen would be sufficient so produce the effect (the co-deposition being irrelevant), that is not the case

    You are perhaps overlooking the packing of H and D into the palladium lattice. A similar effect occurs for nickel and titanium, but with far less absorbed H/D resulting in far less spectacular results.

  • Perhaps of interest.

    Also

    A curious similarity in names.

    Also

    Both with deep roots in the Austin Texas metropolitan region.

    Also... I'm wondering about this

    One produces equipment that Lawrence Forsley, Chief Scientist at Global Energy Corporation, might be using. Maybe some replicators on this thread will find reasons for wanting one in their laboratory, which would support my reasoning on GEC use of the GEC Solutions ENDURA® PVD equipment


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  • GB Goble wrote...

    Quote

    Perhaps of interest. Also A curious similarity in names. Also Both with deep roots in the Austin Texas metropolitan region

    Which is totally a mystery to me, but thank you for the Lawrence Forsley video - that I found interesting. I was a bit surprised that he was mainly talking about mini-fision setups than fusion.


    In the video he show a reference to the 2010 Mosier-Boss et al paper 'Comparison of Pd/D co-deposition and DT neutron generated triple tracks observed in CR-39 detectors' which seemed more on subject.


    This paper is pretty thorough in confirming the creation of a triple tracks from Pd/D co-deposition experiments. Triple tracks are purported to be due to the 12C(n,n'3a) fission of cubic C-12 atoms (I don't think it would occur for hexagonal graphite carbon), and the paper points out their similarity in form to the DT generated neutrons. The energy of neutrons responsible for the Pd/D triple tracks would seem to be 13.5 MeV or greater.


    So, the name of the game would seem to be able to increase the number and energy of neutrons from the Pd/H process, and thus increase the number of C-12 atoms smashed and the energy so produced.


    So, if my explanation for the increase in current for the Pd/H process is correct, which it may well not be, then how can an increase in atom smashing be achieved? What comes to mind is:

    1. Increase the cubic C-12 density in the neutron targets (no info on C-12 density in CR-39s) to maximize the probability of a neutron strike.
    2. Expose the Pd to an electron source (a simple electron gun would probably do). This is to increase the B+ decay (or electron capture) of para-hydrogen molecules, so creating more deuterium molecules that have the possibility of creating more neutrons as the deuterium molecules are split by internal buffeting (as do H2 molecules). The increase in current flow might help to power the gun, and the gun might also provide an energy-output control mechanism should the approach work.
    3. Keep the apparatus as heated as possible to increase the kinetic energy of the H2 mix within the Pd deposits.

    Perhaps some of the first 2 measures have been tried already; I am sure someone will know if they have.


    That's my penny-worth for now.


  • Ouch. That's a lot of reading that I suspect I don't have time for. From your readings has target C-12 type and atomic density factors been under consideration, or electron streams been used to increase the neutron hit rate and/or energy levels? But otherwise, thanks for the reference summary on the subject. It should prove useful over time.

  • On a more practical topic, I attempted checking out with the few ml 10% HCl leftover I had if I could make FeCl3 using Fe2O3 (in the form of red pigment) so that it could be eventually converted into FeCl2 without gas generation, but it seems much slower than trying to dissolve high-surface area iron (steel wool, etc) in the same solution.


    Just dissolving Fe in HCl solution would normally be fine, but the H2 gas evolved in the reaction (Fe + 2HCl => FeCl2 + H2) appears to carry away either HCl solution or Cl gas that easily escapes the container (not sealed to avoid gas buildup), so without a fume hood or by doing it in an open environment after a while the odor becomes unbearable and there's a risk of corroding all metal parts in the surroundings.


    So, probably the next best accessible method for obtaining FeCl2 solution without going through that could be acquiring FeCl3 etchant solution and converting it to FeCl2 by dropping a steel wool (or other finely divided Fe) into it, perhaps after adjusting the pH down.


    Of course, ideally one would use FeCl2 anhydrous in the required amounts, but it isn't so simple to come by.

  • Perhaps some of the first 2 measures have been tried already; I am sure someone will know if they have.

    I'm purely a layman...

    Often wondered what a little bit of finely ground quality raw uranium ore, or perhaps thorium sand provides in GEC reactors. Might fissile material do the trick for you too? Also, will fissile nanoparticles mitigate or limit the vessel destructive aspect EVO's... if any?


    Interesting that GEC states their successful development of a non-fissile CMNS energy reactor core as well as the earlier fissile core. (NASASpace Act Aggrement addendum


    NASA LCF, GEC, NSWC IHD, and perhaps even Munday Labs/Google Inc. present a concerted effort which is well advanced.

    A deep study of these groups patents and referenced papers is warranted.


    Innerspace


    On a more practical and on topic vector...


    You recommend an electron gun.

    Will a photon gun do.

    Is electrolysis the best way to build an LEC reactor?


    Or the NASA LCF, GEC, or Google Inc reactor core's layered/lattice metamaterial structure?


    https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/wp-content/uploads/Lattice-Confinement-Fusion-POC-with-PRC-links-July-17-Final-3.pdf

  • So, probably the next best accessible method for obtaining FeCl2 solution without going through that could be acquiring FeCl3 etchant solution and converting it to FeCl2 by dropping a steel wool (or other finely divided Fe) into it, perhaps after adjusting the pH down.

    Just reporting that this seemed to work fine for diluted FeCl3 (it looked clear strong yellow in my case), turning it within a few hours at room temperature into a rather pale greenish liquid. I don't know if it would work as well for concentrated FeCl3 solutions (often dark/opaque brown-yellow). After more time it turns pale emerald green (not pictured here).



    Eventually I made a brief deposition test with this FeCl2 solution made from scratch, producing a bright-looking Fe deposition layer on a scrap copper piece within a few minutes. So it again seems reproducible, but at very low (mA) currents it will probably take a very long time. I used up to 2.8A for the immersed 2.8x1.5 cm Cu surface here (0.67A/cm2), which is still within the range suggested in the paper I previously linked.



    To remove electrolyte residues I used a rather diluted KOH solution, which worked well in the first attempt for the above photo, but in the second attempt the hydroxide precipitates left in the solution (I believe) stained the piece seconds after I took it out of the solution and dried it as done earlier. This appears to occur more easily with KOH than with NaHCO3 but in either case the rinsing solution should be preferably clean to avoid similar issues.



    Whether such smooth (disregarding the stains) deposition layer would well for the LEC effect it's unclear, but it didn't emit brittle cracking noises like the dark one formed earlier under different plating conditions.

  • I'm hoping FrankG will be able to post more results soon, He's looking at some interesting temperature-related effects currently. I have had to stop researching LEC for awhile (sadly) since amongst other things I am undertaking a major lab re-organisation - new equipment and so on connected to my chemistry work.

  • Personally I would find useful to have confirmations on whether the LEC effect can be actually observed also without a closed concentric cell, or if different/faster Fe deposition techniques similar to the ones used commercially work too (perhaps it actually needs to be done with mA currents or it will not work?).


    Also, if a small cloud chamber could be able to observe particles emitted from the Fe-deposited piece that would be definitely intriguing and difficult to explain with artifacts, although here I was thinking that perhaps it's the embrittled samples which emit noises that could show something (but they were the ones with Fe deposited at higher current levels and/or organic compounds in the plating solution).

  • The BIOSEARCH team (Sarasota) has just published a 22-page full-color report summarizing their work on the direct conversion of LENRs to electricity.



    “A Study in the Direct Creation of Electricity from the interaction of Palladium with Hydrogen / Deuterium Gas”.

    lenr-forum.com/attachment/19146/



    Gathered by Charles Entenmann, Biosearch researchers have achieved undeniable results for almost 10 years, which are begining to be reproduced by other teams. I am very proud to have worked with them.






    You can order a copy of this report which is available from the Infinite Energy Foundation with the September / October 2021 issue of INFINITE ENERGY. This is also the opportunity to subscribe to this excellent journal.


  • Alan Smith

    I mean confirmation from Frank Gordon himself on whether the effect is truly observed also with a similar arrangement in the atmosphere, without any enclosure. When I saw a voltage earlier on, in the end I had to conclude it was due to conduction through electrolyte residues on the spacers and electrodes, since deliberately wetting them with electrolyte would make the voltage stronger and more reliably observed regardless of the facing surface area (as long as indirect contact through the spacers was made). If this was an air ionization effect I would expect the voltage to be proportional with the surface area, but it looked like an ordinary chemical battery, not a LEC.


    Because of this, I haven't attempted measuring whether a voltage was present in the latter tests with FeCl2 solution, only explored the deposition process that others seemed to have difficulties with. In this regard, I think the term "co-deposition" needs clarification, because hydrogen gas has been always generated at the cathode while simultaneously Fe got deposited in my tests, and if plating conditions are right it does not appear to take extensive periods for hydrogen to seemingly get embedded into the deposition layer (producing noises as a result).


    In the plating industry, hydrogen embrittlement is known to occur if excessive amounts of gas are generated at the cathode, and that is usually avoided. Depositing Fe with lower currents would minimize hydrogen absorption, which seems against the desired goals in the LENR case (unless there are specific reasons for this that have not been explained yet, or if "co-deposition" has a different meaning in this or similar contexts in LENR).

  • If this was an air ionization effect I would expect the voltage to be proportional with the surface area, but it looked like an ordinary chemical battery, not a LEC.

    I would expect the voltage to remain pretty much unchanged- but current to increase with plate area. That's how it works with liquid electrolytes anyway.

  • Search Results

    Search results 1-9 of 9 for “Biosearch”.

    These terms were highlighted: Biosearch


    fabrice DAVID Big Thanks and gratitude.


    The Lenrforum search results link I posted above is useful...


    We will see LENR Electric emergent along many fronts. I believe multiple 'layers' are needed, not two or three. Bushnell's latest comments lead me to attempt a new article...

  • There appears to be an important detail in the Biosearch patent. It states that the free electrons are generated by the absorption of protons into a palladium (or similar) anode:


    "Anode (Ionizing Material) hydrogen/deuterium gas absorbing material which releases ions and transmits electrons therefrom"


    This implies that the plated cathode with co-deposited hydrogen of the Gordon LEC embodies a different form of the phenomenon. Or it may just be a labeling inversion, as the voltages shown in the Biosearch patent are negative polarity.