This thread is absolutely fantastic!
Let it stay that way!
Frank Gordon's "Lattice Energy Converter (LEC)"...replicators workshop
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I see the nickel mesh is connected to the black, and the zinc plate to the red lead. Am I correct in seeing no negative sign in front of the meter reading? (the image is slightly obscured by a light refection) i.e. does the nickel register as negative in relation to the zinc? Cheers.
I think it does. I'm just looking for a potential difference and don't worry about polarity every time. Doing formal experiments for a paper is different of course.
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I think it does. I'm just looking for a potential difference and don't worry about polarity every time.
Thanks. I'm guessing, from your description, that the nickel mesh had simply been 'charged' with hydrogen (in a cell), and then left in air for a week or so, in normal ambient temperatures (after whatever tests you had been running).
I can see that I'm going to have to start doing some of these tests myself (as soon as I've sorted out my home workshop - which is still not properly usable, after moving house a few years ago. Grrr
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Summarizing what I have observed for the moment with rudimentary experiments today which is Sunday and I have some time:
- Just carry out electrolysis with a steel cathode and it can easily be a voltage of a few hundred mV out of the tank. Inside the tank, between the graphite anode used and the cathode, when electrolysis is interrupted, there is an initial voltage of about 1.5V which then drops rapidly.
- Reading Alan Smith's example of grounding, it occurred to me to try to ground the counter electrode (a clean sheet) for measurements. Apparently with a simple tester a voltage of a few hundred mV was found at a distance of mm, which surprised me a lot. However, it soon became clear that I was practically conducting the cathode voltage with my body, or in other words, causing grounding problems as I was manually manipulating the electrodes. I wasn't even touching the cathode directly, just the insulated wire connected to it. Without touching anything, no remote tension.
- Then I tried to stack the electrodes on top of each other with plastic spacers or even paper similar to how Alan Smith does. I was still measuring a voltage of a few hundred mV after electrolysis. LEC effect confirmed? Unfortunately remembering what Curbina wrote a few pages ago, it seems that the dielectric surfaces used can conduct enough electricity with moisture to show the cathode voltage after electrolysis. Seems to get dirty easily with electrolyte. By washing the surfaces and the cathode in abundant water and drying them, no tension, or very low tension.
- As a side note, after doing some cathode oxidation cycles by reversing the polarity of the electrolysis in a tank containing non-alkaline water, the cathode seems to work a little better as an electrode. The idea was to have a fine and irregular surface layer more or less similar to that which would occur after electrodeposition in an acid solution. However it was not particularly useful.
For the moment the results do not seem promising.
Follow one of the protocols already described in the thread, and is fundamental to rinse, wash and dry the working electrode after codeposition. can tried to do fast replications and as much as we all like things fast, this is one you can’t rush.
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48 hours rather than 48 minutes. Minimum voltage 2.5V and power input about 1W. The declining from 1.5V mentioned while the electrodes are still in the tank is a capacitative effect basically, caused by all the charged ions in the water gradually finding their way home.
ETA, Keep your fingers away from whatever you are measuring.
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Wasn't it established some message ago that it also works with electrolysis alone ...? Why do you want me to electrodeposition? I
Alan Smith has shown us that indeed it can work without codep in some materials as terbium chips and nickel foam mesh. That doesn’t mean it will work with any material, many materials don’t have good enough hydrogen loading capacity.
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Does the effect come all together after 48 hours? For example, I would expect that with 10% of the time I would have at least 10% of the effect if it "charged" in a manner comparable to a capacitor. Which trend best represents the correlation of the effect with time?
You really, and I mean, Really!!! need to get up to speed with much of the already published material and comments in this thread. If you ask such a question, it means you have a very poor understanding of what we are doing here.
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I urge you to delete my account and all my messages so that you are no longer bothered. Goodbye.
It seems to me that you are the one than can’t be bothered.
Anyway I see no point in throwing a temper tantrum just because you are encouraged to get better acquainted with the matter you want to improve your understanding about, specially to avoid wasting time in basic stuff.You are welcome to keep reading and if you wish to keep asking questions you are also welcome, but please, meaningful questions.
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@Martellino
There is an expression in my part of London "faint heart never f****d a nanny-goat". In science as in fishing, persistence, patience, and care is everything.
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BTW- 304 S/Steel seems reluctant to accept much hydrogen, at least at the temperature level in the tank. I know you can hot gas load it, but electrolysis only yields around 10mV. Mild steel is better, though I have no reliable data to hand. The reluctance of a Zirconium cathode to accept hydrogen came as a surprise, but the literature shows that it readily accepts hydrogen gas loading at higher temperatures.
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Draft of my paper for IWAHLM.
THE LEC DEVICE – EXPLORING THE PARAMETER SPACE
Alan Smith Net Zero Scientific Ltd, Essex, UK. September 2022. http://www.netzerochem.com
ABSTRACT.
The LEC or 'Lattice Energy Converter', invented and patented by Frank Gordon and Harper Whitehouse, is in its simplest form a 2 electrode dry cell with modest electrical output, novel in that the only conductive medium between electrodes is an ionised gas or vapour. Replication and study of the LEC as described by Gordon and Whitehouse have been carried out by Jean Paul Biberian, Antonio di Stefano, Jacques Ruer, Alan Goldwater, this author and others, all encouraged by its simplicity and replicability ..
LEC research published suggests that it requires the wet co-deposition of Pd or Fe with a hydrogen isotope onto the surface of a working electrode (WE). When dried and placed in close proximity to but not in contact with a counter-electrode (CE) a very persistent voltage, typically of 200-800mV, is immediately measureable. The WE and CE may be short circuited many times without reducing voltage output, and output voltage recovery time is rapid, between less than 0.1 sec and 20 seconds depending on the electrode materials chosen and the inter-electrode gap. Voltage is seen when the gas between electrodes is air, hydrogen, or mixed gases and vapours, and is caused by the WE ionising the gas between electrodes, the LEC does not work in a vacuum. Results from the experiments carried out at Net Zero Scientific Ltd. exploring the materials parameter space show that co-deposition is not an absolute requirement and that a broad range of WE materials when loaded electrolytically with hydrogen without co-deposition also show behaviour characteristic of a LEC. These materials include aluminium, nickel, nickel mesh, titanium, ferrocerium, zirconium, samarium, and as powders, terbium, samarium cobalt alloy, and NdFeB alloy, Methods and both positive and null results are described, error-checking for artefacts was carried out and the methods used described.
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The reluctance of a Zirconium cathode to accept hydrogen came as a surprise
Zirconium does tend to self-passivate in air - I don't know how impervious the oxide layer is to hydrogen.
I can remember the panic over the embrittlement of Zircaloy CANDU fuel cladding (95% Zr), in the 1980s - so hydrogen certainly gets in under the right circumstances.
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ABSTRACT.
The LEC or 'Lattice Energy Converter', invented and patented by Frank GordonThat is a good abstract. It covers everything without excessive detail. Abstracts are hard to write.
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Draft of my paper for IWAHLM.
THE LEC DEVICE – EXPLORING THE PARAMETER SPACE
Alan Smith Net Zero Scientific Ltd, Essex, UK. September 2022. http://www.netzerochem.com
ABSTRACT.
The LEC or 'Lattice Energy Converter', invented and patented by Frank Gordon and Harper Whitehouse, is in its simplest form is a 2 electrode dry cell with modest electrical output, novel in that the only conductive medium between electrodes is an ionised gas or vapour. Replication and study of the LEC as described by Gordon and Whitehouse have been carried out by Jean Paul Biberian, Antonio di Stefano, Jacques Ruer, Alan Goldwater, this author and others, all encouraged by its simplicity and replicability ..
LEC research published suggests that it requires the wet co-deposition of Pd or Fe with a hydrogen isotope onto the surface of a working electrode (WE). When dried and placed in close proximity to but not in contact with a counter-electrode (CE) a very persistent voltage, typically of 200-800mV, is immediately measureable. The WE and CE may be short circuited many times without reducing voltage output, and output voltage recovery time is rapid, between less than 0.1 sec and 20 seconds depending on the electrode materials chosen and the inter-electrode gap. Voltage is seen when the gas between electrodes is air, hydrogen, or mixed gases and vapours, and is caused by the WE ionising the gas between electrodes, the LEC does not work in a vacuum. Results from the experiments carried out at Net Zero Scientific Ltd. exploring the materials parameter space show that co-deposition is not an absolute requirement and that a broad range of WE materials when loaded electrolytically with hydrogen without co-deposition also show behaviour characteristic of a LEC. These materials include aluminium, nickel, nickel mesh, titanium, ferrocerium, zirconium, samarium, and as powders, terbium, samarium cobalt alloy, and NdFeB alloy, Methods and both positive and null results are described, error-checking for artefacts was carried out and the methods used described.
Much Thanks Alan Smith , I skimmed through it and will read it thoroughly during the day, I assume you want feedback, a small error in the abstract stood out at first glance (the word is is repeated in the first paragraph). If I find something else of that sort I will point. On the science side the work is deeply interesting and I suspect Frank and Harper could not be happier.
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a small error in the abstract stood out at first glance (the word is is repeated in the first paragraph).
Is is it?? And I didn't catch it. Shame on me as a copy editor.
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Thank you -will amend - all such comments are appreciated. I am a bad typist and a worse proof-reader.
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The LEC or 'Lattice Energy Converter', invented and patented by Frank Gordon and Harper Whitehouse, is in its simplest form is a 2
This is what I mean by repeated, not immediately, but unnecessarily.
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Zirconium does tend to self-passivate in air - I don't know how impervious the oxide layer is to hydrogen.
I can remember the panic over the embrittlement of Zircaloy CANDU fuel cladding (95% Zr), in the 1980s - so hydrogen certainly gets in under the right circumstances.Indeed it does, for that reason I gave it a few minutes of reverse voltage early on, which nirmally helps with that, but reading the literature it seems that higher temperatures are required.
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We are watching an effect that is consistent with other things too. urrent and
Well, this is precisely the big question mark, isn’t it? We are clearly watching an effect that is consistent with ionization of gas, even stronger than what an Americium sample can generate, and yet it has not been possible to detect that radiation as of any kind known. This is the beauty of this, we are on uncharted waters.
No. I am not asking question about uncharted waters. My question is more prosaic.
The LEC is claimed to be operating here as basically a gas-filled ionization chamber. It is said that hydrogen-treated pieces of metal ionize gas molecules and that, as part of its function, the LEC measures this as a current between charged electrodes. My question is why don't other devices acting on the same or related principles measure the same thing?
Commercial radiation detectors have extensive backgrounds of engineering, testing, and routine use in a wide array of situations. They are reliable and well characterized. So what is different? The answer may be completely straightforward but I haven't heard it explained.
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We are watching an effect that is consistent with other things too. urrent and
No. I am not asking question about uncharted waters. My question is more prosaic.
The LEC is claimed to be operating here as basically a gas-filled ionization chamber. It is said that hydrogen-treated pieces of metal ionize gas molecules and that, as part of its function, the LEC measures this as a current between charged electrodes. My question is why don't other devices acting on the same or related principles measure the same thing?
Commercial radiation detectors have extensive backgrounds of engineering, testing, and routine use in a wide array of situations. They are reliable and well characterized. So what is different? The answer may be completely straightforward but I haven't heard it explained.
A kind of radiation that is not previously known and hence we don’t have proper tools to detect it quantitatively, just qualitatively.
