I've been asked to collect in a dedicated general thread recent discussions made on the LENR-Forum channel on Telegram regarding ultra-dense hydrogen and related topics. This thread will be further used in the future to assemble together other chats on the subject, so that they won't get lost or be difficult to access, since they are of general interest.
Keep in mind that conversations on the Telegram channel tend to be fast and loose compared to forum discussions, so they may have a different feel and style than usual here.
This thread may also be used for general discussions on the subject, and comments on the assembled Telegram chats.
Catalytic atomic hydrogen torch <-> Holmlid-type experiments
can: Does a kind of atomic hydrogen torch commercially exists where instead of getting dissociated with an electric arc, hydrogen gas passes through/over a noble metal catalyst of some sort and is there a specific name for this device? I'm aware that this is basically what Holmlid-type experiments already do, using different catalysts at relatively low pressure (generally < 0.1 bar) in a vacuum chamber. It just seems like it's something that might already be routinely used in a slightly different form in real-world applications.
Camilo Urbina: Not that I am aware.
can: Since so-called catalytic combustors exists, I wondered if perhaps the atomic H torch-equivalent existed as well.
Camilo Urbina: I can’t say that what you are looking for doesn’t exist, but I am not aware of anyone selling or using such.
Aka Teslaalset: Interesting question. I checked the web with various search terms on this, but no commercial findings. One (expired) patent application from 1973 appeared in the search. Problem with Palladium is of course that apart from disassociating properties it also absorbs hydrogen/deuterium.
Increasing the temperature of palladium will probably also increase its disassociating capabilities, e.g. by induction.
can: From the published phase diagrams, Pd should not form hydride phases at high temperatures (a few hundred °C) to a significant extent. Other hydrogen-reactive metals that do not form hydrides could be used, in any case, like Pt or Ir. They would be expensive, though.
A possible problem of such novel atomic torch would possibly be the amount of H2 actually dissociated. It might be low compared to flow through an electric arc.
I am not trying to make up with a new product anyway, just pointing out the possible similarities with experiments that would be producing hydrogen clusters or dense hydrogen phases easily. Hydrogen passing through an electric arc or a dissociation catalyst should in principle produce similar results.
In Holmlid's case, after hydrogen has passed through the catalyst, it will not necessarily immediately turn ultra-dense, but can become just "dense". It appears that such "dense" hydrogen becomes "ultra-dense" mostly after it is collected on a suitable metal surface. This sort of reminds me how certain hydrogen flames appear "cold" in the atmosphere but are able to raise the temperature of a metal target considerably. Only wondering if there is potentially some correlation here.
This effect is apparently stronger for protium than deuterium, by the way. Initially, ultra-dense protium was not thought to exist (only the "dense" version, i.e. Rydberg matter), but eventually it was realized that it formed on metal surfaces away from the catalyst where the conversion was initiated.
can: Believe it or not, this is a Kanthal A1 wire (oxidized) [photo of rusty-looking Kanthal wire shown, ad described in a thread on LENR-Forum]
Aka Teslaalset: Can, what are your intentions? Are you trying to generate UDD/UDH?
can: The green wire, it's from tests I'm doing myself for a friend who has a vacuum chamber and is also testing something along these lines, with the aim of producing Rydberg matter and UDH, eventually. However, since there are no advanced detection tools at the moment, so far it's only behavior testing.
Camilo Urbina: He has been experimenting around the Rydberg Matter —> UDH idea for a good while already, there are some threads in the forum with many pictures, videos and measurements.
Aka Teslaalset: I know Camilo, I follow that thread.
can: Most of the tests in that thread were done with plain steel, but eventually I found that it also works with ferritic stainless steel.
Camilo Urbina: Good to know.
Aka Teslaalset: Sounds like you have professional friends 🙂
can: Kanthal is a form of ferritic stainless steel with some aluminium
Aka Teslaalset: I was just wondering, because this is not ´garage´ type of science.
can: The tests are rather crude and they could still be considered a sort of garage experiments. At the moment the aim is just seeing if there is some potentially UDH-effect like hydrogen gas pressure reduction, or large modification of wire resistivity. Another aim is seeing if this is a viable method for obtaining catalytically-active surfaces similar to those of the Fe-Cr-K oxide catalysts typically employed in these experiments.
Kanthal is mostly a Fe-Cr alloy, so adding K and oxidizing it should form a material similar to the catalysts used by Holmlid. The active phase, when formed, looks olive green as in the photo(s) I posted earlier. I think it should be viable, but you never know. It's difficult to properly activate actual catalyst pellets since they are difficult to heat up and tend to have a relatively low potassium content that takes time to diffuse to the surface, whereas wires are rather easy to treat as desired.
[...] I've read a lot about these catalysts and I think I have a good idea of how they behave. An improvement that can be made is for example by adding something else to the precursor mixture (or alkali solution, as I used with wires and surfaces). Perhaps some form of Pt or Pd could be useful. That seems wasteful and expensive for these very crude tests though. Also, much of the process of UDH production also includes some "tricks" that are not necessarily related to the catalysts. Otherwise, mostly the Rydberg matter form may be produced, and no UDH.
Aka Teslaalset: There are probably good commercial alternatives for the Shell catalyst that Holmlid mentions in his publications. Did you have a look at those? This stuff is used to produce polystyrene if I am not mistaken.
can: Generally speaking, similar alkali-promoted catalysts also works for producing RM, and if the catalyst can produce RM, it can also produce UDH. The limiting factor is how well it can dissociate molecular hydrogen to atoms. The function of the catalysts should be described in detail soon in an upcoming peer-reviewed publication by Holmlid and others, so probably more information of what catalyst type exactly can efficiently work will be explained there.
Theoretically, though, purely metallic hydrogen-active catalysts like Pt or Ir can be used, according to Holmlid. This is because all electronic states of hydrogen atoms are Rydberg states (since they are "hydrogenic" by definition), and in principle if a sufficiently large density of hydrogen atoms is desorbed from a surface, Rydberg matter will form, which will then spontaneously de-excite into the ultra-dense form.
This is by the way the reason why I asked earlier on if a sort of catalytic atomic hydrogen torch actually exists. The condensation of hydrogen into the UDH form would release hundreds of eV of energy per H pair.
Camilo Urbina: I understood that to be your idea right away, but as already said, not aware of any as such. I contend that arcing Can be an alternative way to create hydrogen clusters, after the work of Matsumoto.
When I mentioned to Holmlid [if] the catalyst was “secret”, he said that there was nothing secret.
can: I agree that there's nothing secret. How the catalysts work and formed has been described extensively both in the catalyst literature and by Holmlid and colleagues. Perhaps what is missing is something putting it all together, coupled with practical explanations and instructions.
Camilo Urbina: [...] Nevertheless, in the paper “one point cold fusion experiments” Matsumoto used a Pt wire over a Cu plate immersed in a K2CO3 solution, sparked it, and found all sorts of marks in the Copper, and some were , following his analysis, hydrogen clusters.
Why is ultra-dense hydrogen difficult to detect?
Aka Teslaalset: Since it seems it is rather simple to produce UDD/UDH I wonder why there are no reports on unexpected phenomena by e.g. Shell or other chemical companies. UDD/UDH can be triggered by means of very little energy, e.g. a small laser. This is probably also why Holmlid´s papers are not (yet) publically accepted.
Camilo Urbina: The issue is that UDH by itself is ultra stable, the “magic” happens when you stimulate it.
can: Detection is not straightforward, and the UDH clusters formed (if they form) will not release excess energy easily to the surroundings. Furthermore, UDH composed of protium is less easily formed than with deuterium, and more sensitive (in the formation stage) to magnetic and electric fields. Once formed and stabilized, it's very stable, but nuclear reactions will be observed more easily if it's allowed to accumulate in a single place.
The extra-catalyst "tricks" I mentioned earlier are related to these characteristics. A good catalyst is not enough. It is even likely that the precursor form Rydberg matter is formed very easily in many situations, but that it cannot condense further to the UDH form due to a variety of reasons.
Aka Teslaalset: The recent publication of NASA on ´lattice confined fusion´ makes me think there is also UDD/UDH within the applied metals. NASA indicated that the density of absorbed Hydrogen is extreemly high.
I read somewhere that Norront is willing to license their catalyst specification. I would not be surprised as they have commercial targets.
can: Back in 2009-2010 Holmlid worked briefly with Miley, Hora and others and he too suggested that UDH (mostly UDD at the time) would be likely formed also inside vacancies and pores in suitable catalysts and metals. However, the notion that a condensed form of hydrogen that can move around is produced is much broader than a sort of lattice-confined effect.
Camilo Urbina: We have already commented that Holmlid and Lawrence Forsley cooperated in the past, and also with Miley, and they were working in the concept of highly dense packed hydrogen in the lattice, Forsley has even mentioned that the density of D in the lattice reaches is Highly dense (10 to the 24th power atoms per cubic cm). And Forsley said this recently in a video where he was commenting on the results of the lattice confinement fusion paper and reports. I agree with Can that the UDD Can form on a surface, Matsumoto showed it.
Aka Teslaalset: I also prefer to believe that UDD/UDH is mainly formed at the surface. Mainly due to an equilibrium state where there is always a balance between absorption and desorption of Hydrogen/Deuterium, meaning there is equal amount absorped and desorped per unit of time.
Pressure reduction from Rydberg matter and ultra-dense hydrogen formation
can: Since neither UDH or the RM form are gases, but condensed matter, if hydrogen gas transitions to one of these forms, pressure should decrease.
So if there is a continuous process leading to their formation, pressure, at least in a confined space, should eventually reach very low levels.
Camilo Urbina: I agree, it should. This also happens with absorption in Pd or Ni, tho.
can: Unlike Pd, Ni should not form hydrides under normal conditions. H adsorption (surface sticking) in segregated pores in the material may cause a pressure reduction too, however.
Сергей Васильевич Супрунович: Pressure won't [get] too low due to equilibrium.
Camilo Urbina: Not necessarily because it’s a catalyzed process that can be driven out of equilibrium due to the catalyst.
can: [to Sergei]: Indeed there will likely be a limit. At a too low pressure the density of hydrogen on the surface may be too low to form these condensed forms of hydrogen.
Camilo Urbina: [photo] This is what Matsumoto observed and named “itonic hydrogen clusters” also “frozen hydrogen”.
Aka Teslaalset: What I have in mind is that ´normal´Hydrogen/Deuterium is being absorped and desorpted, but that UDD/UDH is formed when absorped Hydrogen/Deuterium is being desorped in atomic form. The metal surface acts as a catalyst to form UDD/UDH from this atomic form. Just a theory though.
can: In general terms that's what Holmlid is suggesting would occur with hydrogen atoms. The surface would act in this case as a dissociation catalyst for molecular hydrogen into atomic. It's likely one would need a very efficient metal catalyst for this to take place at a high enough rate, though. Presumably, the alkali oxide catalysts make this process easier due to the alkali content in the catalyst forming an electron-rich cloud above the surface which slows down the recombination of hydrogen atoms into molecular (as well as promoting other processes).
Aka Teslaalset: Which makes me think this is also what Francesco Celani is in fact having with his processed Constantan wire method.
Camilo Urbina: A very likely possibility.
can: Yes, a reason for choosing the constantan (CuNi) alloy was its reported capability of efficiently catalyzing the H2 -> 2H reaction compared to Ni, Pd, or Cu in isolation
Aka Teslaalset: See also Celani´s (abandoned) patent application (co-inventor Nakamura).
can: M(isa) Nakamura is his wife. In principle the process I employ on Fe- surfaces is not too different from that of Celani
The difference is probably that KOH (or also NaOH may work) solution at high concentrations (as the solution evaporates with heat) apparently makes the surface oxidize rather quickly, so extremely high temperatures do not seem to be required
Secret catalysts from Norront?
Alan Smith: On the topic of the 'secret catalyst', I had a meeting in London with Sindre around 18 months ago at which he told me that he had a couple of postgraduates working full time in the lab screening catalyst materials, and that they had so far looked at something like 200 different compounds
Camilo Urbina: I hope they publish those at some point, even if in a Patent Application.
Aka Teslaalset: I monitor Norront´s newly filed patent applications by means of a weekly check using PAAS.
When something relevant will pop up I will post it at LENR-Forum.
Camilo Urbina: Thanks. And Thanks to Alan for the juicy inside scoop.
Alan Smith: Welcome. I met him when he was on his way back from the Muon Research Group meeting at Rutherford Labs in the UK.
Direct electricity production, another secret?
Alan Smith: Another interesting tidbit from the meeting was direct electricity production from the process. Still a secret I think??
Camilo Urbina: Perhaps not as secret as not expressly stated. But also a great insight
can: Applying Nd:YAG laser pulses on the UDH-covered target induces intense current pulses on electrically-connected foils placed at some distance from it from the high-energy nuclear particles generated (mesons, muons), which is how they are usually detected in the experiments. The signal would be analyzed directly with an oscilloscope. If they are referring to something else, that's not something I'm aware of, at least right away.
Alan Smith: I think that's what Sindre was talking about. 18 months ago it was a new discovery. So not much was said about it- he showed me some video of a few LEDS lighting up...
can: Leif Holmlid has used this method since 2013, here is the paper where he first reported it: https://arxiv.org/abs/1302.2781
But at the time however only ordinary D+D fusion was considered.
I saw that video too; it was also on LinkedIn but I can't find it anymore unfortunately. Hard to make out since it was dark. To me it looked like the electrical disturbance from the laser-triggered reaction induced a brief current spike in the LEDs, perhaps sort of like a [pulse train of] small EMPs.
Alan Smith: I think you are right. I only saw it on his phone.
RF Emission maximization
can: [...] In the paper by Matsumoto on JNE it's suggested that transmutations occurred around/on features appearing on the cathodes used for the plasma electrolysis experiments. Radiation also appeared with a CsI(Tl) scintillation spectrometer. I have never been able to observe anything with a cheap Geiger counter, on the other hand.
Camilo Urbina: Matsumoto saw transmutations in all his electrodes, whenever he looked. He detected all kind of traces in his nuclear emulsions, there’s no more strong proof than that.
can: In the end I just tried maximizing RF emission with the idea that perhaps it might have been related to high energy particle emission similar to the effect observed by SindreZG with LEDs as I posted earlier.
Alan Smith: Radiation also appeared with a Cs(Tl) scintillation spectrometer. I have never been able to observe anything with a cheap Geiger counter, on the other hand. .... You need a good crystal gamma spec to see much. Almost everything we have seen is sub 100KeV, right down to 30KeV...
can: It's possible that for the type of plasma experiments described their electronics might be too sensitive to the radio disturbances generated, which certainly are a major part of the signal. Discerning a real signal from such artifact might not be straightforward without properly designed RF shielding
On pressure reduction from UDH formation and min-max pressure range of formation
Aka Teslaalset: This [pressure reduction effect] makes UDH creation measurements fairly complicated. Decreasing Hydrogen pressure could be caused by two phenomena:
1) absorption in metal
2) formation of UDH
So in fact to measure mainly UDH formation the Hydrogen pressure should be low enough to neglect absorption.
can: Pressure can't be too low, or the precursor Rydberg matter of atomic hydrogen won't form. I believe Holmlid only found it in 2004 even though he had worked on the subject for quite a few years because he was used to perform experiments with desorption of alkali metals (mainly potassium) in a high vacuum. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.physleta.2004.05.027
This was with the old RM generator which only used diffuse gas admission through the heated catalysts, not forced gas flow.
Aka Teslaalset: asked Holmlid, in a personal conversation, whether it would be possible to form UDH/UDD at room pressure (1 atm). He replied that it should be possible up to approx. 0.5 Atm.
can: He often employs lower pressures in order to not affect too much the nuclear particle signal measured by collision with gas molecules in the vacuum chamber.
Aka Teslaalset: Yes, that makes sense. Otherwise D-D fusions could be too intense.
can: The issue is that the measured time-of-flight times of particles like kaons, pions, etc would not be accurate at high pressure because they get braked by gas molecules.
Taking advantage of Meissner effect for detection
Aka Teslaalset: I wonder whether you could use the fact that Meissner effect could occur, you could develop a simple measurement method that makes use of Meissner effects caused by UDD (longer chains?)
can: I'm not sure. Perhaps the superconductive properties could be taken advantage of, but such superclusters are also highly excited (have a large internal excess energy that won't get easily dissipated) and easily turn into the dense (RM) form.
The actual clusters from which nuclear reactions in UDH occur are those without such properties. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10876-018-1480-5
Aka Teslaalset: I recall those are the ones with short (small) clusters, mainly UDH. This is why Norront´s MK1 prototype concept shows that they use Hydrogen to produce negative muons.
can: Deuterium (UDD) was shown to form positive muons mainly, which are not useful for muon-catalyzed fusion: https://www.cell.com/heliyon/fulltext/S2405-8440(18)34875-8
Advanced meson shielding materials
Aka Teslaalset: The ultimate energy harvesting from UDD/UDH would be to develop an efficient method to harvest the annihilation energy rather than focus on D-D fusion. Seems much more complicated though. The annihilation energy is a factor higher than energy released by fusion.
can: Perhaps with some shielding material composed (in part, at least) of UDH itself, the kinetic energy of the mesons generated, neutral and charged, could be harnessed. Highly speculative at this stage though. This was already hinted in some publications, e.g. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.actaastro.2020.05.034
Aka Teslaalset: I discussed this proposed method with Holmlid at ResearchGate since I doubt this method due to the fact that particles formed to create propulsion need to move in the opposite direction of the particles they are created from. Holmlid indicated it should be feasible though, but needs verification.
can: I seem to recall that the mesons are not generated immediately on the laser target, but from unstable UDH fragments ejected by the UDH layer on the target when the laser interacts with it. The mesons would then be emitted isotropically from these fragments shortly after ejection. A large portion would provide the required kinetic energy for thrust, I think.
Aka Teslaalset: Correct, hence my question to Holmlid:
"If high energetic muons / muon neutrinos are formed from decaying Kaons that, before decay occurs, have left the rocket thruster, how can these contribute to thrust of the rocket?"
"The muons need to collide with the carrier surface to transfer momentum. The relative contributions from kaons pions and muons are not known but will be investigated in the development work. "
Nuclear annihilation processes from the oscillation of quasi-neutrons
Aka Teslaalset: Anyone interested in discussing the details of recent summary by Holmlid "Muon-catalyzed fusion and annihilation energy generation will supersede non-sustainable T+D nuclear fusion" (attached) here in this Telegram group, in particular the annihilation part? Or maybe create a dedicated Telegram channel for this discussion. Purpose: increase insights, educate each other, create ideas.
Camilo Urbina: Always Interesting, but the unknowns make the discussion somewhat speculative. I am all for discussing it, I hope it gets published after the ongoing review, the first version did not pass.
can: What details in particular? I don't see why they couldn't be discussed here. I think ideally they might even be discussed in the open comment section where that paper was first posted, but it feels to me like it would be impolite and probably not really wanted by the author. (e.g. what if the observations negatively affect the reviewing process? Although it is not a true peer review for publication in a scientific journal)
Regarding where the antimatter comes from, my tentative understanding is that the very tightly bound proton-electrons in the lowest spin state may form "quasi-neutrons", i.e. composite particles that are almost equivalent to neutrons. The previous "interstellar rocket" paper mentioned that the "oscillation of the quasineutrons" is the origin of the antimatter. I haven't asked, but I believe that has to do with the effect called "Neutral particle oscillation". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutral_particle_oscillation
Aka Teslaalset: I meant annihilation assumptions by Holmlid as a whole, in the paper it´s section 2b.
I don´t want to annoy Holmlid with my comments at ResearchGate since I am not a quantum physics engineer by education.
Crudely-made catalysts and EPO objections
Camilo Urbina: [...] I think it's in [Norront's] best Interest that things could be at least in part replicated with a simple set up, specially regarding the objections the EPO has stated about their patent application.
can: Those catalysts are industrially made by the tons using rather crude manufacturing methods. It's not a fancy process and it can be done with simple setups. The transition to that unstable green color however is not obvious and perhaps could be regarded as a "secret" (although it is frequently described in the literature).
I don't think I am describing there what EPO has asked, though. They basically want a complete procedure (in all of its steps) for confirming that an "ultra-dense state" of hydrogen is being formed, besides a fast signal detected with an oscilloscope by using the laser as mentioned in the patent application. They don't think that UDH exists and that the process described in the patent confirms its formation.