Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

    As far as I am aware of, according to Mills rather than H2O on its own, it's the process that chemically forms H2O which is a hydrino catalyst (in the presence of hydrogen atoms), i.e. "nascent water".


    Right in the claim of the application I linked earlier: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20200002828A1/



    However, I don't know how this could be related to Holmlid's research.


    In the past it was shown by Holmlid et al. that styrene catalysts can form Rydberg K–OH2 (alkali–water) complexes, but I haven't found suggestions that these can also form Rydberg matter (or in other words, a phase composed of just these complexes): https://doi.org/10.1021/la034142t


    If RM could be formed from them, incorporation of other atoms and molecules could be possible similarly to how it occurs with alkali RM, but I'm not sure if this is much related with Alan's report above which seemed to only involve atomic hydrogen and water vapor.

    Quote from can

    I find unlikely that hydrinos and H(0) are completely different things, but Mills and Holmlid have focused their studies on different aspects of it, so either researcher's view might not be complete.

    Yes, Mills has been very much focussing on maximum photon emissions. Hence his emphasis on Strontium.

    From https://doi.org/10.1016/S0360-3199(01)00180-X:



    Lately the developments of BLP show much more focus on heat production which is probably mainly caused by condensation of H RM into UDH.


    The focus of Holmlid has been much more fundamental and towards muon catalyzed fusion.
    Lately Holmlid seems to be more focussing on harvesting annihilation energy from UDH/UDD.

    Yes, that's what he's saying. There must be an 'excess' of hydrogen atoms for the process to have an effect.


    Quote

    [0205] The potential energy of H2O is 81.6 eV (Eq. (43)) [Mills GUT]. Then, by the same mechanism, the nascent H2O molecule (not hydrogen bonded in solid, liquid, or gaseous state) may serve as a catalyst (Eqs. (44-47)). The continuum radiation band at 10.1 nm and going to longer wavelengths for theoretically predicted transitions of H to lower-energy, so called “hydrino” states, was observed only arising from pulsed pinched hydrogen discharges first at BlackLight Power, Inc. (BLP) and reproduced at the Harvard Center for Astrophysics (CfA). Continuum radiation in the 10 to 30 nm region that matched predicted transitions of H to hydrino states, were observed only arising from pulsed pinched hydrogen discharges with metal oxides that are thermodynamically favorable to undergo H reduction to form HOH catalyst; whereas, those that are unfavorable did not show any continuum even though the low-melting point metals tested are very favorable to forming metal ion plasmas with strong short-wavelength continua in more powerful plasma sources.


    Again, seemingly no relation with Holmlid's research, although the iron oxide catalysts used are active when they are oxidized, and hydrogen admission will reduce them, so one could argue that similar processes are involved.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    can

    Both might be the same process, but Mills's mechanism description is completely different than that of Holmlid.

    Now you have pinpointed Mills's description, it may be well worth keeping an eye on his future publications regarding his insights regarding this.

    Back to the same analogy once again:



    Mills has various technical reports, one that was published as a new version in one Reddit group I visit about BrLP had literally a glowing plasma electrolysis as the first image around page 4 of several tens of pages. If you recall, Mills also got to publish some papers in Fusion Technology about electrolysis with nickel and K2CO3 in the early 1990s.


    I don’t know if you recall about an enthusiastic fan of water arc explosions named Tucker Leavitt, he got fascinated by the water arc phenomena published by Graneau in the early 2000s and did some promising replications even while at High School. He then went to Stanford and while there obtained a small pre grad research grant which he put to good use to replicate the water arc explosions in a more thorough way, succeeding at it (between 2012 and 2015, all available in a blog called waterarcresearch.blogspot.com). I have tried to contact Tucker Leavitt since long and even if I was able to get him to accept me as contact in LinkedIn, I have never been able to get him to refer to his water arc research, which always puzzled me. Recently, while discussing this issue elsewhere, I was told Tucker received a cease and desist from BLP lawyers, and apparently he complied very well.

    Quote from Curbina

    I don’t know if you recall about an enthusiastic fan of water arc explosions named Tucker Leavitt, he got fascinated by the water arc phenomena published by Graneau in the early 2000s and did some promising replications even while at High School. He then went to Stanford and while there obtained a small pre grad research grant which he put to good use to replicate the water arc explosions in a more thorough way, succeeding at it (between 2012 and 2015, all available in a blog called waterarcresearch.blogspot.com).

    No, I have not seen Tucker Leavitt's work, but you also mentioned Neal Graneau (also referenced by Tucker on his blog), who I met in Oxford during a LENR conference in 2015.
    I got interested in the works of Graneau, particular in his "Heavy-Water-Arc Gun for Impact Fusion" technology since he was working with Wetsus, a Dutch research institute at that time (I am Dutch myself). We exchanged some information but no cooperation came out of it. I basically lost interest since there was so much going on in the LENR community.

    It might very well be related to Mills' or Holmid's research in some aspects.


    See also his publication "Arc-liberated chemical energy exceeds electrical input energy"

    https://doi.org/10.1017/S002237789900817X

    List of publications by him at researchgate.

    Joined publication Wetsus, Graneau and others :
    "Renewable energy liberation by nonthermal intermolecular bond dissociation in water and ethanol",

    DOI: 10.1063/1.3544497.


    • Official Post
    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    No, I have not seen Tucker Leavitt's work, but you also mentioned Neal Graneau, who I met in Oxford during a LENR conference in 2015.
    I got interested in the works of Graneau, particular in his "Heavy-Water-Arc Gun for Impact Fusion" technology since he was working with a Dutch research institute at that time (I am Dutch myself). We exchanged some information but no cooperation came out of it. I basically lost interest since there was so much else going on in the LENR community.

    Well, Graneau had his own theory about the excess energy coming from molecular bonds in water, and the average measurements were roughly 4X input electrical energy to blast thermal energy. Tucker Leavitt was more interested in knowing if it was real and he obtained a 4X in average, albeit some of his blast were much more energetic, but it was a bit random as some were also less energetic.


    http://waterarcresearch.blogspot.com/


    But what I am trying to convey here is that the phenomena being described and studied by either Mills of Holmlid (or Santilli, Stoyan Sarg, and even Graneau) is all related, to the extent that Mills acted upon who he perceived as breaching his interests at some point.

    The fact that Randell Mills is using "nascent hydrogen" in mix with argon strengthens my suspicion that it's overunity device analogous to Papp's engine rather than dense hydrogen and/or even hydrino device. Maybe the hydrogen/water vapour isn't really necessary in it at all and we get Chernetski plasma device. Both nascent, i.e. atomic hydrogen, both argon have spherically symmetric orbitals, prone to negentropic forbidden electron transitions due to absence of gauss radiation condition.

    In his latest publication Holmlid describes and illustrated one material that both generates atomic Hydrogen and K RM.

    I wonder whether it would be easier to use two methods in parallel to obtain the same but independantly, so one method to generate atomic Hydrogen and another method to create alkali metal RM.

    In fact in earlier papers he used a (heated?) palladium tube in addition to a Rydberg catalyst (Shell) which may indicate that using Shell catalyst alone may not work well.


    Iwamura (Clean Planet) does something interesting in that aspect.

    The stacks that Iwamura mostly uses contain layers of capable metals to absorb Hydrogen alternated with CaO layers.

    These metal layers in fact convert added molecular Hydrogen to atomic Hydrogen supported by gas pressure and heat.

    Next, atomic Hydrogen is leaving a metal layer and moves towards a CaO layer. Careful reading of one of Iwamura's patent applications, reveals following:

    Quote


    However, since CaO, Y 2 O 3 and TiC are difficult to permeate hydrogen, the third layer 24a made of any one of these CaO, Y 2 O 3 and TiC has a thickness of less than 1000 nm, particularly 10 nm or less. It is desirable to form it extremely thin. The third layer 24a made of any one of CaO, Y 2 O 3 , and TiC may be formed in an island shape instead of being formed in a complete film shape.

    and:

    Quote


    Here, CaO is a non-metallic material and does not permeate hydrogen. Therefore, the third layer 27c made of CaO is formed to be extremely thin with a thickness of 2 nm so that CaO is formed in an island shape without being formed into a complete film shape.

    This means there may exists 'pockets' without material adjacent to CaO 'islands' that leave room for forming Ca RM and combining it with atomic Hydrogen that is released by an adjacent metal layer.


    I have a strong suspicion that Iwamura is not aware of this option, since he motivates these island shaped CaO areas in this layer to allow Hydrogen to permeate this layer.

    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    In his latest publication Holmlid describes and illustrated one material that both generates atomic Hydrogen and K RM.

    I wonder whether it would be easier to use two methods in parallel to obtain the same but independently, so one method to generate atomic Hydrogen and another method to create alkali metal RM.

    It should be possible to apply different catalyst types in layers or at close distance within each other to obtain that. A similar idea is described in the text associated with figure 18 in this patent, although with no reference to RM and UDH: https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2754156B1/ (from "[0161] With reference to Fig. 18 ...")


    The alkali metal compound (it seems implied that it's not in a metallic form or it would melt and not stay put) is called "electron-donor material".


    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    In fact in earlier papers he used a (heated?) palladium tube in addition to a Rydberg catalyst (Shell) which may indicate that using Shell catalyst alone may not work well.

    A platinum tube was used in the construction from https//doi.org/10.1063/1.3514985 but I don't think it was fundamental to its function in that form. Ideally one would want a hydrogen-active metal catalyst (e.g. Pt or Ir as often indicated) in a more active, higher surface-area configuration rather than just as a smooth untreated tube in the hydrogen flow path.


    can

    Thanks for digging up those details.

    It's Platinum indeed that Holmlid used, my mistake.


    It has been a while since I had a look at Piantelli's patent applications. This one is still being processed, so certainly of interest. It is another confirmation that the use of alkali metals combined with Hydrogen is claimed as we see with almost all LENR claims. Also Piantelli might not been aware of ultra dense Hydrogen at the time of filing, but it's another confirmation that UDH might be the cause of the excess heat as found by him.

    Rob Woudenberg

    The theory underlying Piantelli/Nichenergy's recent patents and patent applications is based around the idea of negatively charged hydrogen ions H− becoming a sort of very heavy electron, but whether they actually shrink or form clusters is not mentioned nor directly suggested there (last time I checked).


    The alkali metals (or other means providing electrons to the active environment) would favor the formation of negative ions H−.


    As of a few years ago Piantelli should have been aware of Randell Mills' and Holmlid's research, but I do not know what is his opinion about their experiments and theory, other that he did not think for the latter that a fully described experiment had been published yet at the time (personal communication).

    Rob Woudenberg

    Most of people, even me, see only what they need to see.

    Last powerfull Iwamura's release was made by only copper and nickel layers.

    Now, about Piantelli nothing to link with your common understanding, however you should continue a day you will find something "almost" close to holmlid or SO(4) literature.

    "No scientific publication before industrial products will be developed, and not before a complete understanding of the reactions involved will be attained" (paraphrasing) did not turn out to be a good strategy. Leif Holmlid has had the opposite approach, although whether it's been good so far it's difficult to say.

    Most inventors with a theory prefer to stick to theirs.

    We all have our stubbornness, including myself ;)

Subscribe to our newsletter

It's sent once a month, you can unsubscribe at anytime!

View archive of previous newsletters

* indicates required

Your email address will be used to send you email newsletters only. See our Privacy Policy for more information.

Our Partners

Supporting researchers for over 20 years
Want to Advertise or Sponsor LENR Forum?
CLICK HERE to contact us.