Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

    The paper of Holmlid and his polish colleagues "Production of ultra-dense hydrogen H(0): A novel nuclear fuel" been discussed a few times in this thread.

    The proposed fundamental mechanism is illustrated in Fig. 3 with the assumption that hydrogen that is transported over the (heated) surface of the solid (in this case the Alkali doped iron oxide) in a gaseous environment.

    Dissociated hydrogen atoms and alkali Rydberg matter clusters exchange energy such that hydrogen Rydberg matter is formed which in turn condensates to UDH. The low working function of alkali metals plays an essential role in this mechanism.


    There are many indications that just high enough absorption of hydrogen or deuterium in suitable metals (e.g. Pd, Ni) can lead to excess heat.

    The question is whether this is also related to the formation of UDH, as Holmlid has shared as a remark at ResearchGate.

    Let's assume this is the case. The question then is how can UDH be formed within such metals.


    One thought could be that the work function of absorbed hydrogen atoms within the lattice of such metals is much lower than that of dissociated hydrogen in gaseous form above solid surfaces. Hydrogen atoms with a comparable or lower work function would than form hydrogen Rydberg matter in a similar manner as alkali metals.

    Another thought could be that the work function of metals that have a very high load of hydrogen within their lattices is significantly lower than that of metals that don't contain hydrogen.

    Or, it might be a combination of the two thoughts of course.


    The open question therefore is: would it be possible that the work function of hydrogen and/or metals atoms is decreased within the lattices of such metals when sufficient hydrogen atoms are present?

    I was not been able to find any scientific publications on this unfortunately. Any thoughts or facts?

    The higher the density of conduction electrons on the surface, the higher the work function tends to be, therefore dense metallic hydrogen will in principle have a work function similar to that of a transition metal.


    Non-superfluid/superconductive UDH clusters will be almost ideal insulators, but the work function of the H atoms with electrons forming large orbits and giving the super properties could be extremely low, likely lower than that of Rydberg matter at high excitation levels (i.e. of very low density) as reported by Holmlid and colleagues in the 1990s.


    In the same paper you cited, Holmlid mentioned that the catalysts will form UDH (on the surface), and that the superfluid/superconducting atoms in the clusters (existing in equilibrium with the ones without super properties) will "provide loosely bound hydrogen atoms which will easily take part in chemical reactions".


    While I think that a similar situation could arise also in the voids inside metals, I'm not sure if overall the work function will be significantly affected, however.


    When I look to a list of work function values of elements (attached), Samarium (Sm) seems to be an exception when it comes to low work function values while it isn't an alkali metal. Samarium has 2 valence electrons and seems to be able to be promoted to Rydberg states.

    Samarium has been reported present in some LENR experiments generating excess heat.

    Quote from can

    I recall that Dennis Cravens used samarium-cobalt magnet powder for its magnetic properties, but I'm not sure if under conditions where it could have been present in an excited form.

    Russ and I deuterated (by electrolysis) some un-plated SmCo magnets - over a long period at low current settings the magnets first start growing dendrites - rather like little Christmas trees - and then gradually turn to magnetised slush. Because they are magnetised the slush still stays together and is still conductive so long as it is clumped around the cathode wire. I cannot recall what results Russ got since the pandemic rather got in the way of experiments.

    The use of samarium has recently been reported at ICCF 23 by Prahlada Ramarao, VYASA university, Bangalore, India (Centre for energy research), replicating Mizuno's concept of nickel mesh rubbed with palladium. Ramarao reported to have added samarium. His system shows clear excess heat.

    His presentation can found here.

    (Slide 5 and 7 mentions samarium).


    The practical use and handling of pure samarium seems easier than e.g. pure potassium.

    Alan Smith

    Interesting effect; perhaps something loosely similar could be achieved with fine Ni or Fe powder and a magnet on a supporting rod as the cathode, although the solution would probably have to be frequently agitated. Holmlid does not think however that a magnetic field promotes UDH formation.


    Rob Woudenberg

    I wasn't aware yet of this result from Ramarao. I don't think you would need to handle pure potassium however. A layer of easily volatilized potassium oxide can be easily formed, at least on steel, by wetting the surface with a concentrated hydroxide solution and drying by heating it to a few hundred °C. On steel/Fe it forms green oxides of the same type found on the catalysts used by Holmlid and others. Nickel forms similar alkali oxides but it requires higher temperatures.

    I may be biased but in the search for commonalities I find it striking that almost all LENR results that show excess energy the presence of alkali (alike) elements can be found.

    Given the circumstances these elements are applied at, the role of Rydberg states can not be ignored. But unfortunately they still are.

    Rob Woudenberg

    Holmlid indeed suggested something along these lines in the paper on the catalysts, i.e. that alkali elements either as an impurity or as a deliberate addition are necessary for forming Rydberg matter (RM) and thus H(0).


    Quote

    It is concluded that the exact choice of catalyst is not very important. It is also concluded that the crucial feature of the catalyst is to provide excited alkali atoms at a sufficiently high surface density and in this way enabling formation and desorption of H(0) clusters.

    Quote

    [...] Alkali metals are added as promoters to the catalysts or are present as impurities from the raw materials (e.g. iron ore) or even as human contaminations (e.g. manual handling). The formation of RM clusters of alkali atoms is concluded to be a necessary step before RM clusters of hydrogen can be formed.


    I guess most experimenters are looking for a proven "recipe" for excess heat and on its own this suggestion isn't really one. If anything, since it is suggesting that UDH is very easily formed (for example in ordinary catalytic processes) it implies that it is usually formed in amounts so low as to be almost undetectable. Something else is needed for large results just from admission of hydrogen gas.

    Dense hydrogen assumed by Holmlid is not such dense for to require exotic nuclear processes releasing mesons (pions probably). During laser pulses antimatter gets routinely produced and its annihilation generates lotta muons and pions - this is all well known stuff except that it doesn't care about hydrogen, form of hydrogen at all. It's energy density is by many orders of magnitude higher than energy density of dense hydrogen bonds.

    Quote from Zephir_AWT

    During laser pulses antimatter gets routinely produced and its annihilation generates lotta muons and pions - this is all well known stuff

    What sort of laser is used in the experiments you're referring about? Please list a few sources.


    The one used the experiments described by Holmlid has the following characteristics (excerpt from the previously linked paper):

    Quote

    A pulsed Nd:YAG laser is focused onto a metallic target plate with a lens of 40 cm focal length. The laser is used with 532 nm light and 5 ns pulse length at maximum 120 mJ pulse energy. This gives a nominal spot size of 30 µm for a Gaussian beam and a power density of < 3×1012 W cm-2.

    Pity that all LF members didn't take the opportunity to defend their belief by official event at home ?

    Whatever their ideas, the reach would have been much greater and relevance than a simple blog, no ?

    Quote from can

    What sort of laser is used in the experiments you're referring about? Please list a few sources.


    The one used the experiments described by Holmlid has the following characteristics (excerpt from the previously linked paper):

    Quote from Cydonia

    Pity that all LF members didn't take the opportunity to defend their belief by official event at home ?

    Whatever their ideas, the reach would have been much greater and relevance than a simple blog, no ?

    I don't know what you mean. I'm not saying that Zephir_AWT is wrong, only asking to link here studies showing that antimatter gets routinely produced using lasers of specifications similar to the one used by Holmlid (i.e. nanosecond lasers up to a few hundred mJ/pulse).


    I don't rule out that the same signal might be observed also without hydrogen to some extent as he suggests; I suspect however that the studies Zephir_AWT is citing employ tera/petawatt lasers—more powerful by a factor of a million or more than the ones used here.

    In the latest paper linked earlier by Ahlfors, Holmlid suggests as follows:




    I didn't realize it on a first quick read, but with the equation given above the resulting H(0) density relative to that of free H atoms (in Space) is so large that it cannot even be normally calculated on a computer. Is LH actually implying that ordinary matter exists in a very dense sea (aether?) of ultra-dense hydrogen or am I doing something wrong?



    EDIT: using alternative tools, exp(104) gives approximately 8.81 × 104342

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