Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

  • Following publication (Jan 2019) by Antonino Oscar Di Tommaso and Giorgio Vassallo ( Università degli Studi di Palermo) with their views on Electron Structure, Ultra-dense Hydrogen and Low Energy Nuclear Reactions.

    Section 6 Hypotheses on the structure of ultra-dense Hydrogen and

    Section 7 Ultra-dense Hydrogen and Low-energy Nuclear Reactions

    may be of interest in particular.


    Giorgio Vassallo is also closely involved in the LENR developments managed by Francesco Celani.


    Abstract

    In this paper, a simple Zitterbewegung electron model, proposed in a previous work, is presented from a di􏰃erent perspective based on the principle of mass-frequency equivalence. A geometric-electromagnetic interpretation of mass, relativistic mass, De Broglie wavelength, Proca, Klein-Gordon, Dirac and Aharonov- Bohm equations in agreement with the model is proposed. A non-relativistic, Zitterbewegung interpretation of the 3.7 keV deep hydrogen level found by J. Naudts is presented. According to this perspective, ultra- dense hydrogen can be conceived as a coherent chain of bosonic electrons with protons or deuterons located in the center of their Zitterbewegung orbits. This approach suggests a possible role of ultra-dense hydrogen in some aneutronic and many-body low energy nuclear reactions.

  • As far as I recall, their model is different and more complex than Holmlid's (who basically mostly redirects the reader to Hirsch regarding the detailed theory), but they do point out that both the condensation energy and nuclear reactions can be a source of excess heat. They have other papers citing Holmlid and ultra-dense hydrogen (in reference to the electron structure).


    Celani has apparently de-emphasized a correlation to ultra-dense hydrogen in his latest presentations compared to older ones, if you check them out on Researchgate.

  • Recent publication by Forsley also indicates this:

    Title: "Transmutations observed from pressure cycling palladium silver metals with deuterium gas"

    Out diffusion seems to accumulate the missing fusion ingredient in the so called catalyst. There are many examples. The most interesting is cited as follow from the book Fire From Ice: "Yamaguichi and Nishioka detected a gigantic burst of over a million neutrons per second (sustained for two to three seconds) from a thin plate of palladium coated with special oxide and gold films on either side. Employing a pressurized gas cell, they initially infused the three-centimeter square plate with deuterium. Apparently what prompted the unusual outpouring of neutrons was lowering the gas pressure around the millimeter-thin palladium. Soon two more huge neutron burst appeared each a few minutes after beginning depressurization. ...Coincident with the first neutron blast, the flat plate buckled like a potato chip and the gold coating on one surface changed color - consistent with the gold film alloying with the underlying palladium at a temperature probably exceeding 1064 C. The temperature of the plate's steel sample holder rose 50 C.


    Unfortunately, they could not repeat this result. They believed that controlled out-diffusion caused the result.

  • Out diffusion seems to accumulate the missing fusion ingredient in the so called catalyst. There are many examples. The most interesting is cited as follow from the book Fire From Ice: "Yamaguichi and Nishioka detected a gigantic burst of over a million neutrons per second (sustained for two to three seconds) from a thin plate of palladium coated with special oxide and gold films on either side. Employing a pressurized gas cell, they initially infused the three-centimeter square plate with deuterium. Apparently what prompted the unusual outpouring of neutrons was lowering the gas pressure around the millimeter-thin palladium. Soon two more huge neutron burst appeared each a few minutes after beginning depressurization. ...Coincident with the first neutron blast, the flat plate buckled like a potato chip and the gold coating on one surface changed color - consistent with the gold film alloying with the underlying palladium at a temperature probably exceeding 1064 C. The temperature of the plate's steel sample holder rose 50 C.


    Unfortunately, they could not repeat this result. They believed that controlled out-diffusion caused the result.

    If by "out diffusion" you mean desorption of H or D from the bulk of a material at the surface of that material, then yes this is how Rydberg Matter is believed to be created. When the material is a metal that can form a metal hydride with H or D, the desorption of H or D from the bulk of the metal should be stimulated in order to produce H or D atoms in an excited Rydberg state, and this in a low pressure environment.

  • "Yamaguichi and Nishioka detected a gigantic burst of over a million neutrons per second (sustained for two to three seconds) from a thin plate of palladium coated with special oxide and gold films on either side. E

    They are not the only ones to see this. Some got almost killed.


    Warning: Use only highly pure - at least 99.99% Deuterium to avoid asymmetric reactions. Further use reasonable sample sizes. You play with nuclear material. It just could be your last game.

  • There is no evidence that the laser can not be prime cause. I agree and have mentioned in other post the electrical energy can be a prime cause such as in CE explosion experiments. The Simakin's experiments and Holmid experiments have a common basis. Simakin's experiment just goes further by using Thorium as a detector for the energy or reaction of the excited state. What in Simakin's experiments lead you to think UDD or UDH or D(0) or p(0) is not present?

    I have to revise my previous reply to this. Actually, scattered in the many papers published by Holmlid there is some evidence that by ablating the target, the Nd:YAG pulse laser may be forming catalytically-active nanodust that could be producing in larger amounts ultra-dense hydrogen (UDH) and Rydberg matter (RM the "ordinary" condensed form) both on the spot and by slow interaction of such dust with hydrogen gas in the chamber. In other words this would be supporting Drgenek's suggestion that the laser itself is producing UDH—at least when "dusty" conditions would be created as a result.


    There's even direct mention of this in the previously published general review, where in one experiment the laser would be used directly on K-Fe oxide catalyst fragments at the target: https://doi.org/10.1088/1402-4896/ab1276 (open access):


    Quote

    [...] One type of dense matter observation may however be close to continuous H(0). Under the conditions of interest, the vacuum chamber is filled with a visible mist, probably of H(l) RM. Such a mist is formed after an hour or so of direct laser impact on catalyst pieces with the hydrogen gas pressure in the mbar range. This can be seen in figure 16 using D2 gas. Note the visible cloud that scatters the white light generated by the interaction of the IR laser with D(0). It is then also possible to observe small laser-initiated particles glowing with white light for a few seconds in the deuterium atmosphere. They move with a velocity of a few m s−1 and can collide and bounce from surfaces inside the apparatus while glowing continuously. This can be seen in a small video attached with one frame shown in figure 17. It is likely that these particles consist of D(0) and that the process giving the white light is the condensation of hydrogen RM D(l) onto the particle of D(0), as discussed further below.


    Quote


    Figure 16. Photo of the atmosphere in the apparatus after laser running for an hour at a few mbar D2 pressure. An aerosol is observed in the vacuum.


    In other papers sometimes hydrogen-active metals on the target like Ni, Pt or Ir are used, and it is occasionally noted that the laser causes material to be sputtered around, like for example here, where calorimetry was done with a copper block of known mass surrounding the Ir target ad the end of a hydrogen inlet tube: https://doi.org/10.1063/1.4928572 (also open access).


    A suggestion that RM and UDH can be formed in dusty plasmas was also made in the introduction of another paper. Here is an excerpt slightly modified for clarity from https://doi.org/10.1002/2017JA024498 (open access, but no HTML version available):


    Quote

    The composition of the Sun is often considered to be well known. However, recent results indicate that the atomic composition departs from that predicted by the solar standard model. Further, the material in the Sun is probably more complex at an atomic level than normally assumed, containing complex or so-called dusty plasmas. The need for more advanced experimental studies to understand the problems of such plasmas is apparent. One more advanced case is the experimental identification of large Rydberg matter clusters in plasmas and also the more recent studies of ultradense hydrogen H(0). H(0) consists of very strongly bound clusters (molecules) with a density much higher than the Sun’s average density. The observations of nuclear processes in H(0) make further nuclear reaction paths possible in stars. Such paths may even have low helium production (as observed relative to other objects) and high-energy output. Thus, not only the atomic composition but also the molecular or dusty state of the atmosphere of the Sun needs further study.

  • can

    Interesting thoughts.
    In HV plasma setups like Aureon there might be a similar 'metal dust' due to the sputtering effects at the electrodes due to high speed ions.

    Maybe that is why Aureon uses a mixture of gasses. Heavier gasses like Nitrogen Argon require higher voltages to form plasma and will give higher sputtering impact on electrodes.

  • can

    I discussed the effect of sputtering with Mizuno in the past (August 2014) when he was busy with a HV setup with pure Nickel/Palladium and Hydrogen/Deuterium. Mizuno at that time was convinced that this created a suitable metal surface structure that would allow for desired LENR effects. Your suggestion of metal dust also may apply in his former setup.

    He used hydrogen ions to obtain the sputtering and I suggested to him to use Argon. He said he could not use Argon due to his HV supply that was not suitable to generate high enough voltage.


    Edit: link to Mizuno´s publication on this work

  • Rob Woudenberg

    Unfortunately, I don't know much about the characteristics and behavior of such plasmas. Certainly, the gas composition would have an influence on how metals are sputtered and how quickly ions recombine with electrons. Perhaps (just a speculation) elements with a high ionization energy (e.g. noble gases) may even function as a condensation point for Rydberg matter since they might be able to act as a "thermal sink" in the gas phase for the process like solid surfaces do in Holmlid's catalytic experiments. Again, just a speculation, though.


    For sure, the sputtered fine catalytic dust would help dissociating hydrogen and adsorbing it in atomic form in larger amounts, possibly far beyond than what ordinary Fe-K catalyst pellets can do on their own. The H atoms may then be desorbed by the strong laser light and form RM and UDH in the process, e.g. as mentioned here : https://www.researchgate.net/p…2537a261c7000000/download (2000)


  • can

    You probably know: In general sputtering technology is mostly using plasma of suitable (noble) gasses. Sputtering creates dusty plasma due to ablation of the sputter targets that may consist of all types of material but mostly metals. The sputtered particle size is in the region of atom dimensions.


    Regarding the effects of dusty plasma in LENR there may indeed be one of more effects occurring (simultaneously).


    I edited my post above to include a link to the related paper of Mizuno.
    Agree that this may be speculation, but it's worth mentioning here I think.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    I was aware of Mizuno's previous cell where the cathode would be modified over time with a glow plasma. I seem to recall that a reason for abandoning it was the time required to obtain a sufficiently active material under his experimental conditions.


    I understand that sputtering is normally accomplished with inert gases that do not react with the sputtered particles. I guess that doing it both with inert gas and hydrogen at the same time might be considered unusual and probably will not be as studied (for anomalies) as with standard conditions. However, I don't have any specific knowledge in this regard.


    Laser ablation with pulsed YAG lasers like the one used in Holmlid's experiments should produce particles in the nanometer range at the finest, so likely coarser (as well as more disordered) than what is possible with sputtering technology. Curiously, ablation is fast when an UDH layer has not formed, but becomes very slow when one is present. This was also pointed out here, for example:


    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.heliyon.2019.e01864


    Quote

    [...] This laser target surface is not rotated. With an H(0) layer on this surface the laser ablation of the metal target is quite weak, and the setup can be used for daily experiments during several weeks with no change in performance.

  • I was aware of Mizuno's previous cell where the cathode would be modified over time with a glow plasma. I seem to recall that a reason for abandoning it was the time required to obtain a sufficiently active material under his experimental conditions.

    Indeed. This is why I approached Mizuno, suggesting using Argon would likely speed up the preparation.


    Curiously, ablation is fast when an UDH layer has not formed, but becomes very slow when one is present.

    UDD is superconductive, causing diverging EM waves.
    UDH seems not to be superconductive, but maybe diverges EM waves in a similar way. Or, UDH absorbs while releasing high energy particles.

  • Regarding Aureon when suggesting they may apply plasma sputtering as part of their energy producing process, after looking a bit into some details there seems more confirmation.


    There is a patent application from Montgomery William Childs regarding a hollow electrode pointing at applying gas flow sputtering.


    Quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputter_deposition

    Wiki: Gas flow sputtering[edit]

    Gas flow sputtering makes use of the hollow cathode effect, the same effect by which hollow cathode lamps operate. In gas flow sputtering a working gas like argon is led through an opening in a metal subjected to a negative electrical potential.[9][10] Enhanced plasma densities occur in the hollow cathode, if the pressure in the chamber p and a characteristic dimension L of the hollow cathode obey the Paschen's law 0.5 Pa·m < p·L < 5 Pa·m. This causes a high flux of ions on the surrounding surfaces and a large sputter effect. The hollow-cathode based gas flow sputtering may thus be associated with large deposition rates up to values of a few µm/min.[11]

  • It seems that a deposition method called Pulsed Laser Deposition (PLD) exists in practice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsed_laser_deposition


    Experimental conditions will probably be more similar to those attained in UDH experiments with a Nd:YAG laser and metal targets than typical sputter deposition.

    Yes, seems to fit Holmlids´s experiments although optimum sputtering effect seems to occur at ultra high vacuum.

    But there will be a similar effect even if gas pressure is higher. As for Holmlid´s setup, the question is whether Holmlid realizes the possibility of dusty plasma as an effect on creating UDH/UDD. There might be a better optimum to reach best performance.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    The possibility of UDH being formed in dusty plasmas has been hinted in the paper on solar wind I linked earlier, and it is acknowledged that atomic hydrogen may form RM and UDH in desorption from "purely" metallic solid catalysts (see the excerpts below). I think this implies that he at least realizes that there is this possibility in the experiments—since dusty plasma conditions can be formed—but whether this will be tested or verified in practice in a future publication is a different matter.


    To achieve a sufficiently high atomic hydrogen density, probably higher pressures would be needed than what is optimal for deposition processes.


    https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1402-4896/ab1276

    Quote

    The catalysts which are best suited for RM and ultra-dense hydrogen formation are so called hydrogen transfer catalysts, which dissociate the H2 molecules to separate H atoms on the surface, as also metals like Pt and Ir do.


    [...] One important property of the catalyst used is that it dissociates the H2 molecules to separate H atoms. In this way, the electrons on the H atoms are directly in Rydberg states (hydrogenic states). If a covalent H2 bond is formed, H(l) RM cannot be formed.


    [...] a Rydberg state is a state which is hydrogen-like (hydrogenic), thus it only involves one electron in an atom. This means that all electronic states in H atoms are Rydberg states. It is thus not correct to only associate a Rydberg state with an atomic state with large principal quantum number as is often done.


    https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2018093312A1/

    Quote

    A "hydrogen transfer catalyst" is any catalyst capable of absorbing hydrogen gas molecules (H2) and dissociating these molecules to atomic hydrogen, that is, catalyze the reaction H2→ 2H.


    [...] The hydrogen transfer catalyst may further be configured to cause a transition of the hydrogen into the ultra- dense state if the hydrogen atoms are prevented from re-forming covalent bonds. The mechanisms behind the catalytic transition from the gaseous state to the ultra-dense state are quite well understood, and it has been experimentally shown that this transition can be achieved using various hydrogen transfer catalysts, including, for example, commercially available so-called styrene catalysts, as well as (purely) metallic catalysts, such as Iridium and Platinum.


    I don't recall him using Iridium and Platinum besides at laser targets, but I could be wrong here.


    EDIT: a previous catalyst holder construction shown in https://doi.org/10.1063/1.3514985 used a Pt tube, but I don't think it would have promoted hydrogen dissociation to a significant extent.


  • can

    I wasn´t aware of this particular paper of Holmlid. Thanks!


    The posts on dusty plasma here are fascinating. They show that there could be quite a bit of new options to further develop Holmlid´s methods.

    A few thoughts:

    - separate the generation of suitable dusty particles from collecting UDH/UDD

    - find optimized (doped) alloys that cause optimum catalytic performance in the form of dusty plasma

    - find optimized temperature and gas pressure settings

    - find optimum particle size of dusty plasma (the above mentioned methods generate atom sized particles, not sure whether this is best size)

    - optimize laser pulse sequence and intensities

    - probably a few more......

  • Rob Woudenberg

    This implies that other methods producing similar conditions could be suitable. However, one must also be able to obtain useful data (and eventually, useful work) from them. Laser pulses provide precise amounts of energy in each pulse and additionally work as a fast and very consistent trigger for time-of-flight studies.


    I should also stress that so far Holmlid has not directly suggested that in his own experiments UDH is produced this way, although as far as I am aware of, data from "blank runs" with the laser on metal targets, hydrogen gas but no Fe-K catalysts has never been provided. That was the main point of this discussion, after all (following Drgenek's initial comment in this regard).

  • Regarding Aureon when suggesting they may apply plasma sputtering as part of their energy producing process, after looking a bit into some details there seems more confirmation.


    There is a patent application from Montgomery William Childs regarding a hollow electrode pointing at applying gas flow sputtering.

    A closer look at the patent application shows that the purpose seems not related to optimizing dusty plasma generation.

    Its main purpose seems to supply prefered gas type into the vacuum reactor space through its pores. The metal of this construction basically should function as a high pressure gas filter/regulator and probably also to allow generation of atomic gas into the vacuum vessel.
    There probably will be some sputtering effects in Aureon´s concept but it does not seem to focus on optimizing sputtering.


    A hollow cathode method to enhance sputtering operates quite differently.

    This video contains a useful explanation how it works.