Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

  • can , do you happen to know the possible principal quantum numbers of H or D RM?
    According to the information above high principal quantum numbers indeed could be causing very high current density levels.

    Apparently RM of H or D de-excites quickly and it is typically observed with values of n=1–3 around the "emitter". The lowest energy level is [nowadays] associated with UDH.


    Text below from https://doi.org/10.1088/0953-8984/16/39/034 (left) and diagram from https://doi.org/10.1063/1.3514985 (right)

    RM of K appears to have been typically been observed with considerably higher values (n=40–80 in desorption and 10–20 typically), possibly also due to generally different experimental conditions.


    Infrared photons can re-excite RM to high levels, which is also mentioned in Svensson's thesis (screenshot below) and in Holmlid's papers.


    Edit: Would it be thinkable that in a relative high principal quantum number could be derived from exiting UDD to D RM and back?


    I think that's unlikely according to the explanations provided so far. UDH appears to be associated (change to/from) with the lowest energy form of ordinary RM.


    By the way, since it makes little sense to refer to RM without also implying that the azimuthal quantum number ℓ is at its limit (n - 1), i.e. in a circular state, currently RM is referred to by ℓ rather than the special definition of n used years ago.


    E.g. read from Ultradense protium p(0) and deuterium D(0) and their relation to ordinary Rydberg matter: a review

    Quote

    [...] In RM, the electrons are best described as being in Bohr orbits, with just one good quantum number namely l and having a classical time dependence. This means that n is replaced by l. In the lowest Bohr orbit with radius a0, angular momentum is l = 1.

  • I may have the wrong intuition to this number.

    Assuming the condensation energy that is freed when H is condensed to RM H and further condensed to UDH has a direct relation to the principal quantum number, my impression is that this is a fair amount of energy per atom.

    This would mean that condensing potassium RM to potassium delivers much higher condensation energy per atom.

    Please, correct me if I am wrong on this.

  • As far as I understand, the condensation energy (9.4 eV/atom at most for RM composed of H atoms in the lowest state, see here) of RM clusters only depends on the excitation level regardless of which molecule or atom they are formed from.


    This table below is from a 2010 review on Rydberg matter. It's valid for all RM clusters that can reach the listed excitation levels.

    http://doi.org/10.1007/s10876-011-0417-z


    The ultra-dense state is only accessible by H RM in the lowest excitation level.

  • Although I don't have access to those documents, interpreting Table 1 would confirm my intuition.

    Condensation energy of UDD (in table 1 indicated as D(-1)) is huge compared to condensation energy of levels n = 1 - 8.

    Designing a thermionic energy convertor based on condensation of D RM to UDD seems a very attractive option, much more attractive than other alkali RM based designs.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    Thermionic converters are based on the principle that heated surfaces in a vacuum (in particular) emit electrons, and this capability increases the lower their work function is—the energy required for electrons to leave the surface.


    The condensation energy of UDD is indeed very high compared to conventional chemical processes, but I'm not sure how a thermionic converter based on the UDD<->D RM interconversion would work. The high density of low-excitation level RM and particularly ultra-dense hydrogen implies that the work function of surfaces covered with them would be at the very least of about the same level of ordinary metals (for H(1)) and potentially much higher (for UDD) and so that they would not be very efficient as thermionic emitters.


    High-excitation RM formed from alkali metals often has a low density compared to ordinary metals, as the table above also suggests (see the interionic distance). This low density decreases the work function considerably.

  • The high density of low-excitation level RM and particularly ultra-dense hydrogen implies that the work function of surfaces covered with them would be at the very least of about the same level of ordinary metals (for H(1)) and potentially much higher (for UDD) and so that they would not be very efficient as thermionic emitters.

    I think you are correct here after some more reading and thinking. I misinterpreted the principles.

  • Nice update from Holmlid and his Polish co-authors.

    Obviously Holmlid is in squeeze between the Patent Offices and the commercial targets of Norront, giving away more details. See also his statement in the section "Declaration of competing interest".


    I recall there is also the option of creating UDD/UDH without the formation of K RM as catalyst, although seemingly more difficult. E.g. with only Pd present in the process. I wonder what this alternative mechanism would be compared to the K RM way.

  • I don't think the mechanism is substantially different. As far as I understand, hydrogen-active metals (like platinum group metals and in particular iridium as suggested in the recently published paper, but also occasionally in previously published ones) catalyze the H2 -> 2H reaction, and since all hydrogen atoms are hydrogenic by definition—thus Rydberg atoms—they may form Rydberg matter clusters in desorption from such surfaces like alkali atoms do.


    If the process is mediated by Rydberg matter of alkali metals though, the clustering process of H atoms on the surface will be easier since they may easily form mixed clusters with them due to their size and long interaction distances. Once H atoms get incorporated into K RM, they have essentially become themselves RM.


    It's not entirely clear here, but I think in the paper it is argued that alkali elements are very often present as impurity or contamination in the materials used and so they are almost always involved in some capacity in the H RM desorption process.


    Quote

    [...] The electrons on the desorbing H atoms from the surface are of course hydrogenic per definition, thus also in Rydberg states, which may be excited to high Rydberg states, for example by collisions with the surface.


    Alkali metals are added as promoters to the catalysts or are present as impurities from the raw materials (e.g. iron ore) or even as human contaminations (e.g. manual handling). The formation of RM clusters of alkali atoms is concluded to be a necessary step before RM clusters of hydrogen can be formed.


    In this way, RM clusters of H are formed, by energy transfer from the alkali Rydberg atomic species, and especially from the alkali RM clusters, as described above. This process of energy transfer between the different species is quite similar to the energy pooling processes investigated and described in Ref. [72]. The H atoms behave similarly to alkali metal atoms on the surface and in the desorption process. Thus HN RM clusters form in desorption in the same way as the alkali metal RM clusters do. This agrees of course with the common notion that H is the lightest alkali element [40].

  • The new publication suggests that there is an energy transfer from K RM clusters to H atoms/ions to form H RM clusters.

    (also indicated in Fig. 3D), suggesting that some K RM clusters have a higher energy level as H RM clusters.

    If K would not be present, there needs to be another source of energy to create H RM clusters from H atoms. Maybe increase the energy level of H atoms when they leave the surface by means of a high electrostatic field would be an option, causing an H plasma.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    A low bias voltage applied to the surface should be able to recombine the ions leaving the surface with electrons in high states. As the paper points out, this was observed for K ions a few years ago:



    in this publication: (PDF) Emission of highly excited electronic states of potassium from cryptomelane nanorods (researchgate.net).


    There, the catalyst sample had an applied voltage of 0-25V with best results observed around 5–8V. For H atoms, a higher voltage would be probably needed due to their higher ionization energy, together with also a separate more energetic means for intermittently ionizing the adsorbed atoms since they might not be able to easily leave the surface as ions with temperature alone like K in these catalysts. Or perhaps the bias voltage itself could be cycled between a low and a high state.

  • In the latest paper by Holmlid, Kotarba and Stelmachowski it's suggested that industrial [de]hydrogenation reactors may be producing ultra-dense hydrogen and that a related form of this type of hydrogen may actually be directly involved in catalytic reactions. It seems a bold suggestion; it also implies that conditions for its formation may be much less strict than previously thought.


    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221 (open access)

  • In the latest paper by Holmlid, Kotarba and Stelmachowski it's suggested that industrial [de]hydrogenation reactors may be producing ultra-dense hydrogen and that a related form of this type of hydrogen may actually be directly involved in catalytic reactions. It seems a bold suggestion; it also implies that conditions for its formation may be much less strict than previously thought.

    That thought makes sense.
    I am actually surprised that there are not any unusual accidents reported in that type of industry that might be linked to UDD/UDH (correction, there are quite a number of reports, see my post below). Without awareness UDH is hard to detect.


    Even amongst LENR researchers the awareness of UDD/UDH is still quite low.

    UDD/UDH might be more present in their experiments than discussed.

  • Thermal runaways are sometimes reported in the industrial chemistry literature, and Robert Godes of Brillouin Energy often suggests that they might be due to LENR. He also wrote that in the latest IEEE Spectrum article on the US Navy LENR, although no reference was provided. I have read something about this in the past, but I'm not up to date on modern references on the topic.


    https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech…y-researchers-reopen-case



    In any case, if the excerpt I posted earlier is true, even an ordinary chemical microreactor with suitable catalysts and flowing hydrogen gas might be able to produce UDH, although the big question is how much of it is normally produced in a non-transient form.

  • Interesting to see Godes referring to the related chemical industry. As if he is also very aware of UDD/UDH.


    Coincidentally they (Brillouin Energy ) seem to have a lot of knowledge build up on pulsing technology related to excess heat generation using ordinary Hydrogen and Nickel. Didn't we just discuss (pulsed) bias voltages as an option to produce UDH.....?

  • He's been saying that before ultra-dense hydrogen became better known; I don't think he has any particular opinion on it.

    See: Robert Godes of Brillouin Energy Visits Finnish Officials and Statoil in Norway [Updated with Picture] | E-Cat World (e-catworld.com) (2014)


    Whether the fast and intense current pulses in the Brillouin system have an effect similar to the applied electric field in the study cited earlier, I don't know. The pulsing method I proposed (between a high and low voltage to ionize and desorb the adsorbed H atoms, and recombining the ions with electrons in a high excitation state) does not necessarily involve large currents.

  • Remember that publication of a Russian team led by Galushkin (perhaps I don’t recall the name exactly) who claims the FPE is simply a runaway reaction as observed in batteries. He claims is an interesting effect for energy storage but not nuclear.


    https://sci-hub.se/downloads/2….jelechem.2020.114237.pdf

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • ) who claims the FPE is simply a runaway reaction as observed in batteries.

    Although Galushkin references many authors he leaves out M. Stakers methodical replication(2019) of the FPE results

    Although there may be some novel comparison with thermal runaway in Nicad batteries

    Galushkin' s 2020 explanation is a rejuvenated recombination explanation for the excess heat

    . that D2O electrolyses to D2, which accumulates in the Pd lattice and then the accumalated D2 recombines with oxygen

    in short bursts to release heat

    electrolysis :D2O → D2 +1/2O2 recombination 1/2O2+D2→D2O

    The recombination explanation is hardly new.. first mooted around 1989.. and does not explain why
    Staker only observed a huge excess effect with palladium/D2O and not with platinum/H20.


    According to the Galushkin explanation the electrolysed H2 should have accumulated and then caused bursts of heat in the similar way

    electrolysis :H2O → H2 +1/2O2 recombination 1/2O2+H2→H2O


    https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StakerMRpreprintco.pdf

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  • Remember that publication of a Russian team led by Galushkin (perhaps I don’t recall the name exactly) who claims the FPE is simply a runaway reaction as observed in batteries. He claims is an interesting effect for energy storage but not nuclear.


    https://sci-hub.se/downloads/2….jelechem.2020.114237.pdf

    When it comes to runaways in batteries, the worse are those of Lithium-ion batteries.

    These batteries contains Lithium and Hydrogen. Lithium, as an alkali metal, could be forming sufficiently (unwanted) Hydrogen Rydberg Matter when overcharging may occur, because Lithium could be the catalyst just like Potassium as discussed here.

    Even in the case of Fleischmann and Pons Lithium is present in the electrolytic fluid between electrodes. Also here Lithium could be the catalytic alkali metal to form the intermediate RM necessary to form D RM.


    Just my thoughts, again with some speculation, based on the new publication of Holmlid and his two Polish co-authors.