Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

  • I've been asked to collect in a dedicated general thread recent discussions made on the LENR-Forum channel on Telegram regarding ultra-dense hydrogen and related topics. This thread will be further used in the future to assemble together other chats on the subject, so that they won't get lost or be difficult to access, since they are of general interest.


    Keep in mind that conversations on the Telegram channel tend to be fast and loose compared to forum discussions, so they may have a different feel and style than usual here.


    This thread may also be used for general discussions on the subject, and comments on the assembled Telegram chats.




    EDIT 2022-09-25: outdated informal chats put under the spoiler tag.

    Edited 2 times, last by can ().

    • Official Post

    can: It's possible that for the type of plasma experiments described their electronics might be too sensitive to the radio disturbances generated, which certainly are a major part of the signal. Discerning a real signal from such artifact might not be straightforward without properly designed RF shielding


    The scintillator crystal sits inside an aluminium casing, a good Faraday cage. The signals to the remote loggers are carried by shielded cages. I certainly have seen very little EM interference.

  • Catalytic atomic hydrogen torch <-> Holmlid-type experiments

    can: Does a kind of atomic hydrogen torch commercially exists where instead of getting dissociated with an electric arc, hydrogen gas passes through/over a noble metal catalyst of some sort and is there a specific name for this device? I'm aware that this is basically what Holmlid-type experiments already do, using different catalysts at relatively low pressure (generally < 0.1 bar) in a vacuum chamber. It just seems like it's something that might already be routinely used in a slightly different form in real-world applications.

    Thank you can for this great initiative. There is much information that I will need some time to read and digest.


    Here I'm just replying to the above question: what you describe looks like a hydrogen membrane that is used in the industry for several applications such as hydrogen purification. Hydrogen or deuterium passes through the membrane and desorbs on one side of the membrane. If I'm not mistaken (can someone confirm?) Fleischmann & Pons were using some types of palladium that were precisely produced by Johnson Matthey for that purpose.

    • Official Post

    Thank you can for this great initiative. There is much information that I will need some time to read and digest.


    Here I'm just replying to the above question: what you describe looks like a hydrogen membrane that is used in the industry for several applications such as hydrogen purification. Hydrogen or deuterium passes through the membrane and desorbs on one side of the membrane. If I'm not mistaken (can someone confirm?) Fleischmann & Pons were using some types of palladium that were precisely produced by Johnson Matthey for that purpose.

    Hello JulianBianchi , I think you are "correct" and "incorrect" at the same time. There's a Johnson Mathey Hydrogen purificator system, which was recently confirmed in a NASA paper (link below) to produce anomalous heat and transmutations. AFAIK this was never used by Fleischmann and Pons, but used in 1989 by the same authors of the recent report as a way to verify the claims of Fleischmann and Pons, but they considered it a failure as they were trying to see neutrons (which they did not) but they did see Anomalous heat.


    The "incorrect" part is that can is asking for a system that produces a flame only with catalytic effect and not with arcing. I know that H can be "burnt" by a catalytic system without flame or arc, and this has been shown, but is not even close to be a "torch" and is a surface phenomena that can produce heat and glow but not a flame.


    https://sci-hub.se/https://www…abs/pii/S0360319920333462 (recent Fralick et al publication of anomalous heat and transmutations).

  • The scintillator crystal sits inside an aluminium casing, a good Faraday cage. The signals to the remote loggers are carried by shielded cages. I certainly have seen very little EM interference.

    I have no direct experience with scintillation detectors, but I imagined it would vary depending on construction and the intensity of the RF emission. In either case, since the possibility of interference would likely be a major source of skepticism towards any positive result, one would have to make sure that this type of artifact cannot happen. Or at least, that was my idea there.


    Thank you can for this great initiative. There is much information that I will need some time to read and digest.


    Here I'm just replying to the above question: what you describe looks like a hydrogen membrane that is used in the industry for several applications such as hydrogen purification. Hydrogen or deuterium passes through the membrane and desorbs on one side of the membrane. If I'm not mistaken (can someone confirm?) Fleischmann & Pons were using some types of palladium that were precisely produced by Johnson Matthey for that purpose.

    I think a hydrogen membrane will have a similar function to what I proposed, since in order to get to the other side of the membrane, molecular hydrogen would necessarily have to get dissociated into the atomic form.


    In this specific case I had in mind a more free-flowing, hypothetical catalytic system where the rate of hydrogen dissociation would be high enough to heat up materials considerably with the recombination energy (or—possibly—also other processes like condensation to UDH on metal surfaces) of the desorbing H atoms.

  • Thank you can for this great initiative. There is much information that I will need some time to read and digest.


    Here I'm just replying to the above question: what you describe looks like a hydrogen membrane that is used in the industry for several applications such as hydrogen purification. Hydrogen or deuterium passes through the membrane and desorbs on one side of the membrane. If I'm not mistaken (can someone confirm?) Fleischmann & Pons were using some types of palladium that were precisely produced by Johnson Matthey for that purpose.

    You probably also refer to Hydrogen/Oxygen fuel cells.
    Often the main membrane of those contains Platinum or Palladium to split molecular Hydrogen into atomic hydrogen hydrogen ions (protons).

  • I have an explanation for dense hydrogen called w-waves. Within the confines of the hydrogen atom, there is a reversible formation of virtual w particles. They are virtual particles because they exist for such a short time. But since they pop in and pop out and follow the electron in its orbital, the path of the electron also create a wave of the w particle. Like the magnetic field, the w-wave is perpendicular to the direction of electron wave, or spin. The w particles are the weak transition of a proton to a neutron or vice a versa. The w-waves are transition state in-between. The w-waves are quantumly related with quantum numbers from 1 to 240. As the quantum state increase in quantum number, the energy superimposed on the hydrogen atom increases and due to the energy effect on neutrinos instantaneously acceleration, time-space is contracted and dilated. Hence, the hydrogen atom becomes denser. But also the electric field between the electron cloud and the nucleus decreases and the energy loss from the electric field shows up as a magnetic field. Obviously if the magnitude of the coulomb barrier decreases then fusion can occur at a lower temperature. Summary: increase the ability of atoms to bond atom to atom like a magnet to a magnet and they will fuse.


    Using the assumption of magnetic atom to magnetic atom bonding, I have proven that this kind of fusion does occur. It occurs when an electric arc is applied to a mixture of deuterium with a very small amount of contamination with atmospheric gas and when an electric arc is applied to water. The later produces a form of HHO gas. The downside of magnetic atom fusion is that because fusion occurs due to creation of dipoles within the nucleus, the expected energy levels within the nucleus are changed. This kind of fusion produces little heat and hence a lot of entropy. Hidden in entropy term of the Gibbs is equation is the production of mass from energy, a fuel.


    What research I do is focus on the properties of this mass product of cold fusion and how to convert it back to useable energy.

  • My post above isn't a complete view of how to get dense hydrogen. Above, the transition of hydrogen to dense hydrogen occurs due to absorption of light to create a super-positioned state of weak force on the electromagnetic quantum state of a hydrogen atom.


    The other simple way to form dense hydrogen is by transferring the "mass product of cold fusion" to another hydrogen atom and causing it absorption to the nucleus. To provide background, I ask you to consider that the sun produces this non baryon non fermion mass product from fusion as do thunderclouds. Let consider this material. The following is from Wikipedia.


    "The name comes from quinta essentia (fifth element). So called in Latin starting from the Middle Ages, this was the element added by Aristotle to the other four ancient classical elements, because he thought it was the essence of the celestial world. Aristotle called this element aether, which he posited to be a pure, fine, and primigenial element. Similarly, modern quintessence would be the fifth known "dynamical, time-dependent, and spatially inhomogeneous" contribution to the overall mass–energy content of the universe."


    So in theory one makes an EVO by combining electrons with quintessence. The methods to make evos are described in various ways. Think electron flow on or thought an insulator. When this electron-quintessence compound impacts a target, the quintessence transfers into the nucleus of atoms, creates super magnetic atoms and leads to fusion/fission.


    As used here quintessence has a very small mass and is a fuel. When a mass is small enough and also has kinetic energy, it can be confused with light. Is it so unreasonable that Tesla's objection to hertzian wave theory of light was he had discovered quintessence as I have described it. Tesla radiant energy flowed like a fluid.

  • For what it's worth, Holmlid differentiates between "dense" and "ultra-dense" hydrogen, although both are condensed matter. The former, which he calls in general terms Rydberg matter, may be formed by almost any atom or molecule that can be excited (brought to a Rydberg state, albeit a particular one called "circular") in sufficiently large numbers at low-workfunction or nonmetal surfaces (or possibly the presence of other "collision partners" that can dissipate the condensation energy). In my opinion this is the form with properties closer to what is often called EVO, or other clustered form of hydrogen and other molecules since, among other things, it can have atom-atom distances ranging from 150 pm to almost arbitrarily large.


    The ultra-dense version (atom-atom distances in generally the ~0.5-5 picometer range) was found to be spontaneously formed only from Rydberg matter of atomic hydrogen, whose atoms have only one electron. I speculate that perhaps an ultra-dense version of heavier atoms or molecules could be formed if all of their electrons could be brought to a circular Rydberg state, although it seems it would be very unlikely to happen. Mayer and Reitz have theoretically proposed a sort of "ultra-dense helium", which they call He-tresino, though.

    Edited once, last by can: molecules would be separated into atoms in the process ().

  • I speculate that perhaps an ultra-dense version of heavier atoms or molecules could be formed if all of their electrons could be brought to a circular Rydberg state, although it seems it would be very unlikely to happen.

    Maybe not very likely under Earth circumstances, but elsewhere in the universe.
    Black holes might be related.

  • Picking up on the subject of annihilation energy generation from UDH/UDD, I´ve noticed that Holmlid slightly changed his views.
    Starting from this paper from August 2018, the annihilation energy is described by following formulas:

    Quote

    The mesons formed are all types of observable kaons and pions,34,35 and it is likely that three kaons are formed from each H2(0) particle since this conserves the number of quarks as ( p+e−)( p+e−) → 3 K. The number of quarks may be unchanged in such a meson formation step, but a further pion pair may be created by which process the number of quarks is not conserved. The process shown is highly exoergic and gives 390 MeV to the three mesons ejected from each pair of protons, and 111 MeV in total if a further pion pair is created.



    Then, from this more recent publication it is indicated as:

    Quote

    The annihilation process generates fast mesons, especially charged and neutral kaons at typical energies of 100 MeV or 200 MeV u-1 [11,13,17]. From this high kinetic energy, it is estimated that 600 – 1200 MeV kinetic energy is generated per pair of nucleons, thus 30-60% of the nucleon pair mass is converted to useful kinetic energy. The mass of the kaons is also transferred to lighter particles and to kinetic energy by the kaon and subsequent pion decays, but this energy is partly lost to neutrinos and gammas.

  • The annihilation energy part of UDH/UDD harvesting is much more interesting (and higher) than the also described D-D fusion derived from only the negative muons that are produced when triggering UDH, since annihilation process does not produce any harmful (sub) particles when harvested before decay and produces significantly higher energy levels.

  • In the 2016 Swedish patent it was written as follows.



    I think he sometimes varies the equation to emphasize certain aspects depending on the context.

  • Picking up on the subject of annihilation energy generation from UDH/UDD, I´ve noticed that Holmlid slightly changed his views. [...]


    if you were highlighting this in particular:


    Quote

    it is estimated that 600 – 1200 MeV kinetic energy is generated per pair of nucleons, thus 30-60% of the nucleon pair mass is converted to useful kinetic energy


    I think here he's referring to the kinetic energy generated by overall process, while the 390 (or 111) MeV figure given earlier was only the kinetic energy from the initially formed kaons+pions.

  • On the questions: H vs D? Which one works better? Is high purity necessary?


    My understanding from what has been published so far is that both work (but D works better) and a gas mixture may be used too. Deuterium will have local D+D fusions going on and a higher condensation energy, which will likely make it more easily to detect using heat alone. However, protium will (eventually) produce negative muons which should give muon capture reactions. In the experiments the gases are often switched, without any particular procedure for purging the other from the system, other than keeping admission going for prolonged periods to obtain a clean enough signal as desired.


    https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aadda1


    Quote

    Since the bonding is slightly stronger in D(0) than in protium p(0), it is likely that deuterons (which are bosons) condense to d(0) more easily than protons (fermions) do to p(0), and that d(0) is more resistant against excitation and fragmentation.


    https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1402-4896/ab1276


    Quote

    [...] the normal spin s values found in [Coulomb Explosion] experiments are generally higher for p(0) than for D(0), thus the average distances in the clusters are larger for protium than for deuterium. This agrees with the notion that the proton–proton (fermion) interaction should give larger bond distances in p(0) than in D(0).


    https://patents.google.com/patent/SE539684C2/


    Quote

    “Hydrogen” should, in the context of the present application, be understood to include any isotope or mix of isotopes where the nucleus has a single proton. ln particular, hydrogen includes protium, deuterium, tritium and any combination of these.

    Quote

    The fusion reactor 1 comprises a muon generator 10, a vessel 3 containing hydrogen gas (which may, for example, be a suitable mix of protium, deuterium, and tritium), a vaporizer 5, and an electrical generator 7.

    Quote

    [H(0)] is a quantum material (quantum fluid) which may involve both electron pairs (Cooper pairs) and nuclear pairs (proton, deuteron or triton pairs, or mixed pairs


    https://www.sciencedirect.com/…abs/pii/S0022286018308172 (paywalled)


    Quote

    [Rotational] spectra are now studied for ultra-dense protium p(0) and for the ultra-dense hydrogen mixture pxDy(0), giving several lines different from D(0).


    https://www.cell.com/heliyon/fulltext/S2405-8440(18)34875-8


    Quote

    Using p(0), the observed decay time is in the range 1–2 μs, thus shorter than the free muon lifetime, as expected when the signal is mainly caused by negative muons which interact with matter by muon capture

    [/quote][/quote]

  • if you were highlighting this in particular:



    I think here he's referring to the kinetic energy generated by overall process, while the 390 (or 111) MeV figure given earlier was only the kinetic energy from the initially formed kaons+pions.

    Agreed. Kaons decay to lighter sub-particles where the differences in mass again is converted to kinetic energy.

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