Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

As far as I recall, their model is different and more complex than Holmlid's (who basically mostly redirects the reader to Hirsch regarding the detailed theory), but they do point out that both the condensation energy and nuclear reactions can be a source of excess heat. They have other papers citing Holmlid and ultra-dense hydrogen (in reference to the electron structure).

Celani has apparently de-emphasized a correlation to ultra-dense hydrogen in his latest presentations compared to older ones, if you check them out on Researchgate.

Quote from Drgenek

There is no evidence that the laser can not be prime cause. I agree and have mentioned in other post the electrical energy can be a prime cause such as in CE explosion experiments. The Simakin's experiments and Holmid experiments have a common basis. Simakin's experiment just goes further by using Thorium as a detector for the energy or reaction of the excited state. What in Simakin's experiments lead you to think UDD or UDH or D(0) or p(0) is not present?

I have to revise my previous reply to this. Actually, scattered in the many papers published by Holmlid there is some evidence that by ablating the target, the Nd:YAG pulse laser may be forming catalytically-active nanodust that could be producing in larger amounts ultra-dense hydrogen (UDH) and Rydberg matter (RM the "ordinary" condensed form) both on the spot and by slow interaction of such dust with hydrogen gas in the chamber. In other words this would be supporting Drgenek's suggestion that the laser itself is producing UDH—at least when "dusty" conditions would be created as a result.

There's even direct mention of this in the previously published general review, where in one experiment the laser would be used directly on K-Fe oxide catalyst fragments at the target: https://doi.org/10.1088/1402-4896/ab1276 (open access):

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[...] One type of dense matter observation may however be close to continuous H(0). Under the conditions of interest, the vacuum chamber is filled with a visible mist, probably of H(l) RM. Such a mist is formed after an hour or so of direct laser impact on catalyst pieces with the hydrogen gas pressure in the mbar range. This can be seen in figure 16 using D2 gas. Note the visible cloud that scatters the white light generated by the interaction of the IR laser with D(0). It is then also possible to observe small laser-initiated particles glowing with white light for a few seconds in the deuterium atmosphere. They move with a velocity of a few m s−1 and can collide and bounce from surfaces inside the apparatus while glowing continuously. This can be seen in a small video attached with one frame shown in figure 17. It is likely that these particles consist of D(0) and that the process giving the white light is the condensation of hydrogen RM D(l) onto the particle of D(0), as discussed further below.

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Figure 16. Photo of the atmosphere in the apparatus after laser running for an hour at a few mbar D2 pressure. An aerosol is observed in the vacuum.

In other papers sometimes hydrogen-active metals on the target like Ni, Pt or Ir are used, and it is occasionally noted that the laser causes material to be sputtered around, like for example here, where calorimetry was done with a copper block of known mass surrounding the Ir target ad the end of a hydrogen inlet tube: https://doi.org/10.1063/1.4928572 (also open access).

A suggestion that RM and UDH can be formed in dusty plasmas was also made in the introduction of another paper. Here is an excerpt slightly modified for clarity from https://doi.org/10.1002/2017JA024498 (open access, but no HTML version available):

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The composition of the Sun is often considered to be well known. However, recent results indicate that the atomic composition departs from that predicted by the solar standard model. Further, the material in the Sun is probably more complex at an atomic level than normally assumed, containing complex or so-called dusty plasmas. The need for more advanced experimental studies to understand the problems of such plasmas is apparent. One more advanced case is the experimental identification of large Rydberg matter clusters in plasmas and also the more recent studies of ultradense hydrogen H(0). H(0) consists of very strongly bound clusters (molecules) with a density much higher than the Sun’s average density. The observations of nuclear processes in H(0) make further nuclear reaction paths possible in stars. Such paths may even have low helium production (as observed relative to other objects) and high-energy output. Thus, not only the atomic composition but also the molecular or dusty state of the atmosphere of the Sun needs further study.

Rob Woudenberg

Unfortunately, I don't know much about the characteristics and behavior of such plasmas. Certainly, the gas composition would have an influence on how metals are sputtered and how quickly ions recombine with electrons. Perhaps (just a speculation) elements with a high ionization energy (e.g. noble gases) may even function as a condensation point for Rydberg matter since they might be able to act as a "thermal sink" in the gas phase for the process like solid surfaces do in Holmlid's catalytic experiments. Again, just a speculation, though.

For sure, the sputtered fine catalytic dust would help dissociating hydrogen and adsorbing it in atomic form in larger amounts, possibly far beyond than what ordinary Fe-K catalyst pellets can do on their own. The H atoms may then be desorbed by the strong laser light and form RM and UDH in the process, e.g. as mentioned here : https://www.researchgate.net/p…2537a261c7000000/download (2000)

Rob Woudenberg

I was aware of Mizuno's previous cell where the cathode would be modified over time with a glow plasma. I seem to recall that a reason for abandoning it was the time required to obtain a sufficiently active material under his experimental conditions.

I understand that sputtering is normally accomplished with inert gases that do not react with the sputtered particles. I guess that doing it both with inert gas and hydrogen at the same time might be considered unusual and probably will not be as studied (for anomalies) as with standard conditions. However, I don't have any specific knowledge in this regard.

Laser ablation with pulsed YAG lasers like the one used in Holmlid's experiments should produce particles in the nanometer range at the finest, so likely coarser (as well as more disordered) than what is possible with sputtering technology. Curiously, ablation is fast when an UDH layer has not formed, but becomes very slow when one is present. This was also pointed out here, for example:

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.heliyon.2019.e01864

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[...] This laser target surface is not rotated. With an H(0) layer on this surface the laser ablation of the metal target is quite weak, and the setup can be used for daily experiments during several weeks with no change in performance.

Rob Woudenberg

p(0) (i.e. UDH of protium) appears to be both superfluid and superconductive like D(0):

https://doi.org/10.1007/s10876-014-0804-3

It seems that a deposition method called Pulsed Laser Deposition (PLD) exists in practice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulsed_laser_deposition

Experimental conditions will probably be more similar to those attained in UDH experiments with a Nd:YAG laser and metal targets than typical sputter deposition.

Rob Woudenberg

The possibility of UDH being formed in dusty plasmas has been hinted in the paper on solar wind I linked earlier, and it is acknowledged that atomic hydrogen may form RM and UDH in desorption from "purely" metallic solid catalysts (see the excerpts below). I think this implies that he at least realizes that there is this possibility in the experiments—since dusty plasma conditions can be formed—but whether this will be tested or verified in practice in a future publication is a different matter.

To achieve a sufficiently high atomic hydrogen density, probably higher pressures would be needed than what is optimal for deposition processes.

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1402-4896/ab1276

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The catalysts which are best suited for RM and ultra-dense hydrogen formation are so called hydrogen transfer catalysts, which dissociate the H₂ molecules to separate H atoms on the surface, as also metals like Pt and Ir do.

[...] One important property of the catalyst used is that it dissociates the H₂ molecules to separate H atoms. In this way, the electrons on the H atoms are directly in Rydberg states (hydrogenic states). If a covalent H₂ bond is formed, H(l) RM cannot be formed.

[...] a Rydberg state is a state which is hydrogen-like (hydrogenic), thus it only involves one electron in an atom. This means that all electronic states in H atoms are Rydberg states. It is thus not correct to only associate a Rydberg state with an atomic state with large principal quantum number as is often done.

https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2018093312A1/

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A "hydrogen transfer catalyst" is any catalyst capable of absorbing hydrogen gas molecules (H₂) and dissociating these molecules to atomic hydrogen, that is, catalyze the reaction H₂→ 2H.

[...] The hydrogen transfer catalyst may further be configured to cause a transition of the hydrogen into the ultra- dense state if the hydrogen atoms are prevented from re-forming covalent bonds. The mechanisms behind the catalytic transition from the gaseous state to the ultra-dense state are quite well understood, and it has been experimentally shown that this transition can be achieved using various hydrogen transfer catalysts, including, for example, commercially available so-called styrene catalysts, as well as (purely) metallic catalysts, such as Iridium and Platinum.

I don't recall him using Iridium and Platinum besides at laser targets, but I could be wrong here.

EDIT: a previous catalyst holder construction shown in https://doi.org/10.1063/1.3514985 used a Pt tube, but I don't think it would have promoted hydrogen dissociation to a significant extent.

Rob Woudenberg

This implies that other methods producing similar conditions could be suitable. However, one must also be able to obtain useful data (and eventually, useful work) from them. Laser pulses provide precise amounts of energy in each pulse and additionally work as a fast and very consistent trigger for time-of-flight studies.

I should also stress that so far Holmlid has not directly suggested that in his own experiments UDH is produced this way, although as far as I am aware of, data from "blank runs" with the laser on metal targets, hydrogen gas but no Fe-K catalysts has never been provided. That was the main point of this discussion, after all (following Drgenek's initial comment in this regard).