Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

  • Which catalyst could produce more UDH than another? That depends on what the catalyst does. Which depends on what entropy leads to (hydino like condensed states or pseudo-neutrons). If one favors energy must be added to a proton/electron state to generate a neutron like state, then the catalyst plays the classic role of helping reduce an energy barrier. The catalyst gives energy to UDH which then causes fusion of UDH with itself or similar states of other atoms. Then energy from fusion is taken back to the catalyst and stored in the catalyst. Which then provides the energy for the catalyst to catalyst the production of more UDH. The production of the first excited catalyst comes by absorption of random high energy radiation or through a phat mechanism via energy supplied via electricity or a laser. The first fusion event is auto-catalytic for catalyst. It makes more energized catalysts at the expense of energy not released as heat during the fusion reaction. The energy storage mechanism is explained by Paul Brown in "Neutralizing nuclear waste using applied physics".


    A quote from that article as follows:



    Hydrogen can't store the energy necessary to overcome the barrier to fusion. It has too low of A. But multiple hydrogen can contribute that energy to an atom with a larger A that can store it and use it to cause fusion catalysis.


    Oxygen not some metal can obtain the highest potential to catalyze fusion.

  • Some people still don't unerstand fusion basics:


    Fusion needs no energy art all.

    Formation of dense Hydrogen UDH needs no energy at all.


    UDH is the product of relaxation of the spin pairing energy. So a catalyst must be able to align spins for that pairing can occur. and afterwards the proton spins can pair too.

    Fusion is the release of energy. If you cant provide a straight path to phonons then only the fine-structure coupling radiates. This work for D*-D* only as H*-H* needs a complex structure change to form 2H. H*-H* is a dead end except you can bring it along Nickel!

  • you are saying that He4 is made of 4 protons. Why not then the direct reaction 4 H* to He4?

    4-He is formed out of 4 proton as the experiments of Holmlid do prove and also SO(4) physics shows.


    Dense matter structure is much more complex than people think as charge follows the topology and always is virtual. Most N=Z nuclei in fact have no internal Neutron structure. A neutron is formed when a proton and electron together leave the dense mass.

  • I was referring to the the fact that you said H*-H* is dead for fusion.

    Yes 4-He if it is in a cluster on a catalyst.. But D*-D* will finally collapse to 4-He without any cluster catalyst.


    3-He + n as an outcome can have different reasons. One is mixing D*/H* others are fragmentation reactions.

  • Drgenek

    Do you have specifications/publications how to alternatively prepare UDH that are understandable for non-experts?

    As defined UDH is a very dense form of hydrogen. I have never attempted to isolate specially those states that would be as dense as defined. A cluster of UDH likely happen just below the surface of hydrogen absorbing metal during electrolysis of water.


    The following is from condensed matter "cluster" reaction in LENRs by Miley et al from ICCF-14:



    Figure 2. Squid magnetic measurements show clusters have characteristics of a type- II superconductor.

    Cluster regions can have hydrogen densities approaching 1024 1024/cc.


    The legend for the figure did not transfer well the density approaches 10^24 hydrogen per cubic centimeter.


    If you do an electric arc in pure hydrogen in a balloon, the volume of the balloon will decrease and the atomic weight (calculated using the ideal gas law) will increase. Further, the rate of volume loss is greater than for an untreated balloon (as if the size of the atom decrease). If you use deuterium and add oxygen well below the explosive limit, the volume decrease is even greater. One can considerable decrease the volume of pure hydrogen this way, but analysis will not show a detectable level of helium being formed.


    A fitting explanation is that a denser form of hydrogen is made which is also super-magnetic. The super-magnetic hydrogen will form clusters. A mixture of deuterium and oxygen (oxygen below the explosive limit) will produce Nitrogen, water etc.


    The following data is from

    SAMPLE ID HT1 HT2

    INLET | PRESSURE torr 219 333

    NITROGEN ppmv 49042 61085

    OXYGEN ppmv 13254 3211

    ARGON ppmv 542 592

    C02 ppmv ND 497

    MOISTURE ppmv 402 10705

    HYDROGEN ppmv 3321 3937

    METHANE ppmv ND ND

    AMMONIA ppmv ND ND

    DEUTERIUM ppmv 933379 917980

    FLUOROCARBONS ppmv ND ND

    BENZENE ppmv 60 ND

    UNKNOWN* ppmv ND 1993


    HT1 is before application of the arc and HT2 is post application of the arc. I hope you can read the data I was not very successful in editing it to a more readable form.

  • A cluster of UDH likely happen just below the surface of hydrogen absorbing metal during electrolysis of water.


    The following is from condensed matter "cluster" reaction in LENRs by Miley et al from ICCF-14:

    This is also confirmed in NASA´s recent published paper on lattice confinement fusion.

    If you do an electric arc in pure hydrogen in a balloon, the volume of the balloon will decrease and the atomic weight (calculated using the ideal gas law) will increase.

    Is this your thought or is there a publication you can refer to? I would love to see this confirmed.

    I hope you can read the data I was not very successful in editing it to a more readable form.

    Sorry, it´s not clear what is related to this data. Is this from Miley´s paper? Maybe a reference will help.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    If hydrogen transitions from a gas to a condensed state (liquid or solid), i.e. RM or UDH, generally speaking pressure should decrease. So, if an electric arc under appropriate conditions can cause the same transition, a pressure decrease should be observed. However, hydrogen can get adsorbed more easily on certain surfaces (e.g. graphite) than it does in molecular form if it can be dissociated in the atomic form with external energy input (e.g. electric arc)**.


    For an in-topic publication see this: https://www.researchgate.net/p…n_and_Sorption_Properties


    Quote

    Abstract: Sorption capacity of Rydberg matter (RM) clusters is examined for both electronegative and neutral molecules. Sorption isotherm of RM has been determined as a function of gas pressure and time. It is shown that chemisorption is characteristic for electronegative molecules whereas molecules with no affinity to electrons are absorbed by physisorption mechanism. Sorption capacity of RM is shown to be highest for physisorption mechanism. Absorption of molecules by RM clusters can be used either to detect condensed RM formation or both to maintain high vacuum conditions and high purity of noble gas atmospheres. Sorption capacity of RM can significantly exceed conventional getter sorption capacities.


    EDIT: ** regarding hydrogen getting adsorbed in atomic form and causing a pressure drop, see for example this excerpt from https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.431559 (paywalled):



    Although one could argue that a condensed form of hydrogen was formed instead.

  • "Sorry, it´s not clear what is related to this data. Is this from Miley´s paper? Maybe a reference will help."


    The data is from US2012/0033775 A1. The data can be mass balanced with the assumption that arc produces super-magnetic combinations of the gases and that the proportions of these super-magnetic gases are in direct proportion to the concentrations that were exposed to the arc. Super-magnetic gas will bond magnet to magnet. By these assumptions the unknowns can be divided as mostly deuterium, nitrogen and oxygen. Once one accounts for chemical reactions, one is left with a non chemical reaction. Deuterium and oxygen disappear and nitrogen and hydrogen appear in stoichiometric ratios. Please note there is a high degree of precision and accuracy to the reaction based on the data. See the details of this analysis in US20180322974 A1


    The point of the above is that clusters of super-magnetic atoms are formed (the unknowns in HT2). Clusters are mostly deuterium, nitrogen and oxygen. These cluster are like those Miley observed but formed from an arc through gas rather than just below the surface of a hydrogen absorbing metal due to hydrolysis. Further the clusters above are not just UDD but magnetic forms of oxygen and nitrogen are also formed and they become part of the clusters due to magnetic attraction. Most importantly, a nuclear reaction was measured by mass balance and stoichiometry!! The mechanism for that reaction is catalysis based on giant resonance.


    Obviously the reaction determined in US20180322974 A1 is an overall reaction. That overall reaction is the sum of many reactions. The sequence of reaction was derived based on a catalytic mechanism. That sequence of reactions suggests the production of new elements. The same new elements are detected by Safire experiments. (ie the same reactions are likely happening in Safire experiments)

  • can , Drgenek, regarding the balloon remark:

    I am aware that if within a volume of common Hydrogen gas RM or UDH is formed, the gas volume will decrease. UDH is extremely dense. I was however looking for proof that creating electrical sparks in a Hydrogen volume will cause production of UDH (without specific added catalysts).


    The formation of atomic Hydrogen by electrical sparks is well known, however to have Hydrogen gas volume reduced this will require the atomic Hydrogen to get absorbed by e.g. metal anode or cathode. If so, it will not occur instantly but requires time.


    I am not sure whether Drgenek is suggesting to this effect of absorption of atomic Hydrogen or to formation of UDH.


    I will need to study the works of Santilli more before I am able to comment on how realistic this is.
    But the works of Holmlid, Miley and Santilli all point to ultra dense form(s) of Hydrogen.

  • Rob Woudenberg

    I've always read Santilli using either consumable electrodes (graphite), electric discharges into organic solutions, and/or rather energetic (a few kV, many Joule) sparks that would certainly erode the electrodes. So "dusty" conditions will likely be formed under his parameters.



    (Excerpt from https://www.researchgate.net/p…ew_Clean_Nuclear_Energies )



    As for pressure reduction mentioned earlier, Rydberg matter (UDH precursor, when formed by H atoms) can have a density ranging from about as dense to much less dense than ordinary matter. My point was that upon formation, a pressure reduction should occur because, being condensed matter, the atoms composing it will be more or less fixed in space and will not repel each other (and exert a pressure on the container walls) like gaseous particles do. Furthermore, RM is suggested to have a sort of "gettering" property: atoms and molecules colliding with RM may become adsorbed into its structure (paper I linked earlier from M. Ojovan), or themselves become part of such RM which implies that they will be removed from the gaseous atmosphere (e.g. see excerpt below from https://doi.org/10.1016/S1387-3806(02)00689-9). However, an actual pressure reduction effect has never been reported in Holmlid's studies.


  • Atomic Hydrogen is also formed with atomic hydrogen welding.

    Atomic hydrogen welding (AHW) is an arc welding process that uses an arc between two tungsten electrodes in a shielding atmosphere of hydrogen.

    Different metals or alloys can be welded with this method, e.g. Nickel.

    One may wonder whether this allows for forming UDH during AHW and if so, why aren't there any unexpected effects reported.

  • Atomic Hydrogen is also formed with atomic hydrogen welding.

    Atomic hydrogen welding (AHW) is an arc welding process that uses an arc between two tungsten electrodes in a shielding atmosphere of hydrogen.

    Different metals or alloys can be welded with this method, e.g. Nickel.

    One may wonder whether this allows for forming UDH during AHW and if so, why aren't there any unexpected effects reported.

    I think there are, Energetic anomalies have been reported in very simple experiments. Not long ago I started this thread about it:


    Production of fuel with COP above 1 (electric energy input/heat energy output) patent about to expire in 2021

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Atomic Hydrogen is also formed with atomic hydrogen welding.

    Atomic hydrogen welding (AHW) is an arc welding process that uses an arc between two tungsten electrodes in a shielding atmosphere of hydrogen.

    Different metals or alloys can be welded with this method, e.g. Nickel.

    One may wonder whether this allows for forming UDH during AHW and if so, why aren't there any unexpected effects reported.


    I have sometimes thought about this, but I have no detailed knowledge of the existing literature behind this system. Assuming that the H atom density achieved is actually high enough for this to happen, it is considered unlikely for RM (which would then convert into UDH) to form without a surface that can act as a thermal sink for the condensation energy (mentioned here, paywalled), so if a very large temperature difference is observed between the H recombination flame in the gas phase and that on the work piece surface, that could possibly indicate that some of the heat comes from the large condensation energy of UDH.


    Measuring flame temperature properly could be difficult, however. One could perhaps try detecting, instead of temperature, UV and X-rays in the 0.01–1 keV range which could be associated with UDH formation, but this was never measured by Holmlid. If ultra-dense hydrogen is involved, that formed from deuterium gas might be able to produce more energy since it is suggested to have on average closer bonds than with protium (see section 3.5 here).


    EDIT: using online calculators one can see that in standard air, 1 keV X-rays will be attenuated by 98.7% after only 10 mm, so they will not be easy to detect.


  • EDIT: using online calculators one can see that in standard air, 1 keV X-rays will be attenuated by 98.7% after only 10 mm, so they will not be easy to detect.

    And the kind of detectors that would be able to see such low-energy X-rays are cryo-cooled. Which is not a good mix so close to a hot flame.