Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread
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The value of 1023 atoms/cm3 as suggested by NASA seems to be related to the metal lattice constant (Erbium: 355pm) suggesting 1 Deuteron per lattice unit.
Since the whole "lattice confinement fusion" affaire became widely known, I have seen media articles quoting Lawrence Forsley talking exactly about "Metallic hydrogen" and 1024 Hydrogen atoms (one order of magnitude than 1023). Those are the figures talked about in the 2009-2011 publications where Holmlid had something degree of involvement, just to re state my point that Holmlid had left a seed of inspiration into the NASA team, even whe he was just researching Rydberg matter.
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In reference to densities in the order of 1023–1024 here is a related excerpt from a 2010 paper by Badiei, Andersson, Holmlid:
https://doi.org/10.1063/1.3371718 (paywalled)
And a similar one from https://doi.org/10.1017/S0263034610000236 (also paywalled):
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Apart from the precise number, the question is whether Hydrogen within metal lattices can have the form of Hydrogen Rydberg matter in the lowest energy level. The quotes above are probably based on presence in vacuum. I wonder whether Hydrogen Rydberg matter can exist within metal lattices where electrons act in a free moving cloud.
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Lattice irregularities are often mentioned as necessary to obtain LENR in metals, so you might be right.
A useful site describing various lattice structures is this site.
Iwamura (Clean Planet) applies very thin sandwich structures of different metals and even CaO, which form lattice irregularities at the interface between layers.
But the reason why I did this provocative post was to check opinions whether LENR in metals is occuring due to a combination of 'normal hydrogen' atoms stored in regions of regular metal lattice grids and UDD, probably stored in lattice defects, acting as trigger fuel.
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What I'm saying above is that typical lattice defects will probably be too small for H RM clusters to form, and larger features might be needed. Perhaps Iwamura-type sandwich structures may be producing them in lager amounts.
Wherever H RM is formed, depending on surrounding conditions the ultra-dense form should also be associated with it, at least according to what has been suggested by Holmlid so far, as well as from what is implied in the excerpts I posted above.
It can be expected that not everybody will agree with Holmlid's ultra-dense hydrogen idea (or more in general that deep electron orbit hydrogen atoms exist) and many LENR researchers may find sufficient the idea that "ordinary" metallic hydrogen will have properties exotic enough for nuclear reactions and excess heat to arise. For instance, Edmund Storms' Hydroton is proposed to be formed in cracks and voids in metals/metal-oxides and to have properties analogue to metallic hydrogen, but I don't think it is considered to have ultra density.
Takaaki Matsumoto proposed clusters of hydrogen formed by the action of the electric arcs in his experiments. He observed them as formed in the surface so the need for cracks, and this is a wild speculation, IMHO has more to do with the need for providing the conditions that form during the arcing than with the “compression” of the hydrogen. In the same alley, the NASA team recently observed much more bubbles detected in the sensors when the Pd deposition was evidently dendritic. Again, this topological condition is proposed to have a higher electron density flowing. Just wild speculation from my part.
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This document: Ultrahigh-density deuterium of Rydberg matter clusters for inertial confinement fusion targets, by Holmlid, Hora and Miley indicates that clusters of UDD/UDH have been measured up to densities of 1029 deuterons per cm3 in cracks and Pd lattice defects.
It has not been reported whether non-defective lattice locations would not also contain UDD/UDH.
In a totally different setup it would not be unthinkable that there could be a mixture of normal deuterons and clusters of UDD/UDH in a metal lattice structure.
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It has not been reported whether non-defective lattice locations would not also contain UDD/UDH.
In a totally different setup it would not be unthinkable that there could be a mixture of normal deuterons and clusters of UDD/UDH in a metal lattice structure.Small UDH clusters have been suggested to be able to diffuse easily through metals, so dense (non-defective) metal samples exposed to a source of UDH may end up containing to some extent ordinary H atoms as well as UDH clusters.
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.4947276QuoteDue to the large difference in scale between the ultra-dense material and the carrier surface (typically 2 pm instead of 200 pm for the carrier), many novel effects may be possible. It means for example that an entire chain cluster H2N may fit in between two metal atoms on the surface, and that diffusion of small clusters into the surface may be fast.
However, one thing is for the metal to be able to host these clusters, another to actually produce/generate them.
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So far muon catalyzed fusion is proposed to be a two stage process:
- first: generate negative muons from UDH at low gas pressure
- second: apply muons to high pressurized Deuterium
I wonder whether it is possible that UDD cluster elements are able to fuse as well during the first stage.
Negative muons will bounce off superconductive UDD, but small clusters will not be superconductive.
This would mean Helium has been detected in the past in such experiments.
can, do you know Holmlid did report Helium while producing UDD?
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Another observation is that in order to establish muon catalyzed fusion it requires both Protium (to produces negative muons from UDH) and Deuterium (to allow D-D fusion).
For experiments using metal lattices this would mean that if only Deuterium is applied this may not be an optimum condition, since very pure Deuterium will contain very little Protium.
Interestingly recently Dennis Cravens filed a patent application that indicates the use of both types of gas.
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This document: Ultrahigh-density deuterium of Rydberg matter clusters for inertial confinement fusion targets, by Holmlid, Hora and Miley also indicates:
"Rydberg matter was predicted and measured in gases where astatic clustering of protons or deuterons to comparably high densities is generated with densities up to 1023cm-3 (Badiei & Holmlid, 2006)"
I wonder whether this leaves room for an implementation in gaseous form or even in a plasma environment.
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They're referring to Rydberg matter (RM) experiments where a "cloud" of such material would extend for distances of the order of centimeters around the "emitter" (heated catalysts) in a vacuum with residual hydrogen gas.
Formation of RM in a purely gaseous environment seems unlikely, but it's more likely in a plasma. The first observations of RM by Holmlid have been made in the late '80s–early '90s in the inter-electrode plasma of thermionic converters and those experiments have been replicated by a Russian group a few years ago:
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Formation of RM in a purely gaseous environment seems unlikely, but it's more likely in a plasma. The first observations of RM by Holmlid have been made in the late '80s–early '90s in the inter-electrode plasma of thermionic converters and those experiments have been replicated by a Russian group a few years ago:
The application of such RM matter is interesting! One of the papers of V. I. Yarygin and A. S. Mustafaev refers to an old and expired patent of Holmlid and Svensson regarding a Thermionic energy convertor based on alkali RM.
QuoteThermionic energy converters are used to convert thermal energy at temperatures between 1200 K. and 2500 K. to electric energy without mechanical movable parts.
Would this hint at Aureon and/or even (dare I say) Rossi?
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Also see Svensson's doctoral thesis on the subject here:
A novel thermionic energy converter concept
https://gupea.ub.gu.se/handle/2077/14481
Would this hint at Aureon and/or even (dare I say) Rossi?
In theory, RM at high excitation levels may give a work function so low that even at room temperatures the thermionic current density would be enormous, but this has never been actually demonstrated in practice.
Work function of Rydberg matter surfaces from jellium calculations
https://doi.org/10.1016/0039-6028(94)90533-9
I don't know to what extent this particular [theoretical] aspect of RM is related to claims and observations by the various groups working with plasma-based LENR systems, though. It wouldn't require hydrogen and it would be more easily seen with alkali metals like potassium or cesium.
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can , do you happen to know the possible principal quantum numbers of H or D RM?
According to the information above high principal quantum numbers indeed could be causing very high current density levels.Edit: Would it be thinkable that a relative high principal quantum number could be derived due to excitation of UDD to D RM and back?
